


FIFTH SESSION / 
SECOND SITTING		:	NORMAL	:	27, 28 AND 29 MAY 1998
								



								

	VOLUME 5 /	1998







SPINE:	VOLUME 5 1998
















HANS\COV598
	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - ELEVENTH SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 27 MAY 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:05 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  As usual, before I continue with the Order Paper, I did hear the sound of a cell, and I would like to remind members, and members of the public that they must ensure that their cells are switched off whilst within the chamber.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, there was another issue that I think that I should bring to your attention as a point of order.  During the prayer there was actually talking from the public gallery, and I find that that shows total disrespect to you as Speaker, and for this hon House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We will have to make arrangements for formulating a procedure to be put in place, in order to ensure that members of the public are aware of how to behave when in the chamber.  Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I have one announcement which has to be brought to this House.  There has been a number of problems regarding notices of motion in the House.  This has led to unnecessary delays in the proceedings.  I hope the members have noticed that to alleviate this problem in terms of Rule 3 of the standing Rules, an interim ruling is going to be submitted to the House - to all the members for your information.  It is a simple matter that we have dealt with, with the Speaker, we have agreed that in terms of the Rules that have not as yet been adopted, there is a procedure that has been agreed to in principle by all the parties.  We think we will make use of that, and we will stick to it very strictly.  I will request that members do look into that very carefully, because it will save us time.  It does cause problems if we delay proceedings because of motions.  I am hoping that every one who is going to put forward a motion today will have taken into account the sentiments that have been expressed during the past few days.

For the purposes of Hansard, I will read the Interim Rule.  This is the interim ruling by the Speaker on notices of motion:

	1.	A member may not give notice of more than one motion on any given sitting day, and such motion shall be limited to 100 words.

	2.	Motions should briefly set out the matter to be debated, and may not include arguments that would normally form part of the debate.

	3.	A notice of motion which contains unbecoming expressions, infringes the Rules of the House, or is otherwise irregular, and may under the Speakers authority be corrected by the clerk of the table, any such alteration must be submitted to the Speaker and member who gave the notice.

	4.	A notice that is wholly out of order, vexatious or frivolous may be ruled by the presiding officer to be out of order, and consequently withheld from publication on the Order Paper.

This is the interim ruling that we are going to request members to abide by until it is changed.  In your copies you will notice that there is a duplication of two sections.  I will request your indulgence on this matter please.  Do forgive us, it was all done in a hurry.  Therefore it does not mean that we have got 2(1) and 2(2) sections.  We will correct the error.  Thank you.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

The Premier is not as yet in the House.  Yes, Mr Minister?

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):  Mr Speaker, we have no announcement from the Premier, but I can only indicate that he will be joining the House very soon.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  It depends on whether he joins the House, and has an announcement.  If so, we will give him that opportunity.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Leader of the House.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  Mr Speaker, I hereby table the Annual Report of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature for the year 1997.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Leader of the House.  Any further tabling of reports?  None.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

Thank you, Mrs Millin.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to move the following motion, to be debated at an opportune time during this sitting:  

	That in view of the ongoing culture of non-payment of services - such as Bonds, Rates, Rents and Services - still prevalent in many areas of our Province;

	notwithstanding widely publicised and costly campaigns such as "Masakhane" ostensibly launched to "transform" the culture of non-payment;

	AND NOTING the prerequisite for top level leadership in Government to lead by example in honouring financial commitments, rent and service costs - in line with the oft stated commitment to good governance, openness, accountability and transparency.

	RESOLVES to request the Cabinet and the Ministers of Local Government and Housing in particular - to draw up a detailed plan for presentation to this House of steps, to be taken in an attempt to make the "Masakhane" campaign a success in our Province.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mrs Millin.  Any more notices of motions or Bills?  There is fortunately no further notices of motions or Bills. 

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1	QUESTIONS

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS WILL BE PUBLISHED IN A LATER VOLUME.

DISCUSSIONS ON QUESTIONS.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I see the Minister of Finance.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  May I seek your authority to address you on the question of the presence of members who put questions?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I grant you that permission, Mr Minister.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Thank you very much indeed, sir.  Firstly, may I preface what I have got to say by saying that I respect and honour the ruling you gave.  I have no problem with it.  You were making a ruling on a set of circumstances.  But I wonder, if I, on behalf of the Executive, can request that just as we have an obligation to be present to answer questions when they are put to us, and that if we are not present and have not made adequate alternative arrangements as were made today, for example, to have the questions properly answered, so the members that put questions have an obligation to be present.  In fact, I am aware, sir, that in other Legislatures there is a rule that whenever a question is on the Order Paper the Speaker will in fact ask, "Who puts the question".  The member concerned will rise and say, "I do".  Only then is that question replied to.  He can, however, ask somebody else to put the question for him if he is unavoidably detained or ill or whatever the case might be.

We think, sir, that just as we have an obligation to the House it is a most discourteous thing for the majority of the questions put in this afternoon's session to have been put by people who could not bother to be present to hear what the replies were.  I wonder if the Parliamentary Board, under your esteemed leadership, Mr Speaker, could attend to this matter.  Thank you very much.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  INTERJECTION.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Before I react to the Minister's very, very appropriate concern and suggestion, I will allow Minister Ndebele to have his say.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, just to concur with my colleague.  Those of us who are Christians, we now what injustice Pontius Pilate did to all of us when he asked the question, "What is the truth", to Jesus and he did not wait for an answer.  Up to now we do not know what the truth is because Jesus was going to answer, but Pontius Pilate did not wait for the answer.  [LAUGHTER]

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, just on a point of order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  The Rules of our House do provide that other members can put questions on behalf of the member who has put the question on the Order Paper, which the hon Mr Miller did say.  I do agree with him, it is discourteous of members not to be here, but often we do not know when the questions are coming onto the Order Paper.  In the case of Mr Haygarth, he did write in to the Speaker and ask for leave of absence for this week.  So we apologise for him.  Mrs Galea is unfortunately away.  So I have been asked then if it came up to put the questions on their behalf, and we are represented.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I think the concern raised by the Minister is very appropriate.  Members must just accept that it is discourteous if they are going to be away when their questions are going to be answered.  Whilst Mr Edwards says that members are not usually aware of when their questions are going to come onto the Order Paper, I think that it is a very simple thing.  Members who have put questions have got access to the staff and the clerks here, and may request from them what questions are going to appear on the Order Paper this coming question day, because we do have a programme.  Members can refer to the programme and also refer to the office of the Leader of this House for information on the proceedings.  There is no problem there.

The only reason for ruling today as I ruled is because there is no Rule that I could actually use.  I thought it appropriate that since members had seen the questions on the Order Paper, they might have had an interest in the answers, as well as the Minister who was present.  I did not think really that we should deprive the members present of the opportunity of hearing the answers which they may have an interest in.  But nonetheless, I have noticed that the majority of the members who are absent are members of the National Party.  I was not aware of the leave of absence requested by Mr Haygarth, but I am aware that there are members of the ANC as well who are not present here, and I am fully aware of what is happening in Pietermaritzburg, which is likely to cause members to be absent.  So that is why I did not bother that much.

MR F REHMAN:  They are busy canvassing, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, it is their political duty.  I have no problems with that, as long as their parties are aware.  We have completed the questions.  I hope that we will look into the issue that Minister Miller has raised, and that is how to deal appropriately with questions asked by members who are not in the House for various reasons.  Having completed this then, before we convert the House into the Committee of Supply, I just want to mention that I have noticed that the Chairman of the Committee of Supply has been provided with yellow cards.  One of the hon members present was good enough to provide yellow cards.  I want to assure you that the Speaker and myself, although we have not been informed, will use them during normal proceedings.  We will further request that the hon member will provide at least one red card.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We have come to the end of this part of the proceedings of the House.  I now propose that we convert the House into the Committee of Supply.  I will request the hon Chairperson of Committees to take the chair.  The House converts into a Committee of Supply.

MRS F X GASA:  Mr Speaker, sorry.  The Deputy is going to take over because I am on the speakers' list.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you for that.  I will request the Deputy Chairperson to take over.

AN HON MEMBER:  We will go and sort out all these male traditional leaders.  [LAUGHTER]

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.
MR T S MOHLOMI DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are now going to debate vote 11A, that is Traditional Affairs, and I wish to call upon the hon Minister, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane to address the House.

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1998.
VOTE 11A:  TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS. 

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Mr Chairman, and the hon members.  I am sorry, sir, my voice is not good.  I will see how far I can go.

On Monday I submitted programmes 3 and 4 of my vote to this hon House.  Today I rise to submit programmes 1, 2 and 5, which are the programmes for Administration, Traditional Affairs and Auxiliary and Associated Services.

Before addressing each programme specifically, I wish to address the question of funding of this vote in broad terms.  As I stated on Monday, we were reduced by an amount of R27,819 million as compared with the previous financial year, a reduction of 14,6%.  Our allocation is, as the hon members are aware, R162,950 million.

The method adopted in apportioning this allocation was to deduct an amount estimated to be that required for public service salaries viz R70 million.  This represented 36% of the vote.  The remaining 64% was then divided equitably between Standard Items and Programmes.  The only Programme showing a significant percentage in increase is Programme 3, which is Environmental Affairs, which I mentioned on Monday.  The proportions of the available funds allocated to each Programme have remained much the same as in 1997/1998, as follows:






97/98
98/99
ADMINISTRATION		: PROGRAMME 1
 2,0%
 2,2%
TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS		: PROGRAMME 2
13,5%
13,8%
ENVIRONMENT			: PROGRAMME 3
 1,9%
 3,3%
NATURE CONSERVATION		: PROGRAMME 4
81,5%
80,0%
AUXILIARY & ASS SERVICES	: PROGRAMME 5
 1,0%
 0,7%

PROGRAMME 1	:	ADMINISTRATION

Amount allocated is R3,594 million, but last year, for 1997/1998, it was R4,044 million.  A big reduction of 11,13%

This programme is there to finance the internal administrative processes of the Department.  This includes personnel and financial management, provisioning and work study and other auxiliary services.  This Department has been handicapped in the past in that for a long time the administrative support services component existed only on paper.  Virtually no staff was inherited from the previous administrations.  I am pleased to say that the situation has greatly improved, and in this regard I refer hon members to our recently tabled annual report.  This is particularly important in relation to financial management.

Nevertheless, the reduction means that this part of the Department will only have about 50% of the posts recommended by the Organisation and Work Study.  As is elsewhere the case in the Department, what we lack in quantity, we hope to compensate for in quality.

It is appropriate under this vote for me to mention the state of affirmative action in the Public Service establishment of my Department, that is excluding posts which become parastatal Conservation Service posts.  We have 11 posts in the management echelon: four are vacant, four are occupied by black males, one by a white female and two by white males.  Below the management level there are only two white males.  We will endeavour to increase the number of ladies in the senior posts as time goes on, although of the six posts of Deputy and Assistant Director currently filled in our small Department, two are filled by ladies.  We will of course, Mr Chairman, and the hon House, remain alert to the requirements of representivity without wishing to turn the white male into a totally threatened species.  As indicated on Monday, this will also be my approach in relation to the Conservation Service.

PROGRAMME 2	:	TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Amount allocated, R22,437 million.  In 1997/1998 it was R25,653 million.  Therefore this year there is a great reduction of 12,54%.

I wish to first address the impact of the reduction in the funding of this already underfunded programme.  The support of the magistrates have been withdrawn and the Department needs therefore to provide 26 District Offices.  This is now not going to be possible.  The administration of tribal accounts is a source of great concern, and without a proper field administration, the Department will not be able to adequately support and guide tribal authorities.  Similarly, very little training will be provided and the amounts to be transferred to tribal authorities will be very much smaller.

The nationally agreed increase in the salaries of ~Amakhosi~ to R72 000 per annum involving additional annual expenditure of R12 million cannot be fully funded within this budget.

Rural development, Mr Chairman, and the hon House, has been so underfunded for years now, that no significant programmes can be launched, and the post establishment recommended by the Organisation and Work Study, remains a blueprint.  The result, inter alia, is demotivated staff.  With the small budget available of R3,593 million, we are ineffectual in meaningfully addressing the upliftment of plus/minus 286 tribal authorities.  The overall consequences is that the service rendered to the traditional communities by this Department does not come anywhere near meeting their needs.

Having said that, let me look at some of the issues falling within the purview of Traditional Affairs.  It is sometimes asked of me what is it that ~Amakhosi~ are, and what do they do to warrant their support form the State coffers.  Allow me, hon Chairperson, and hon members, to elaborate briefly on this point.

1.	A Zulu traditional leader is an hereditary leader, but a system of consultation with tribal leadership takes place prior to the confirmation of an appointment by the Provincial Government via my Ministry.  This might not be Western democracy, but it has within it time-honoured democratic principles which urban dwellers and others not acquainted with Zulu practice are arrogant to reject.

2.	~Amakhosi~ play a major role in preserving peace and order in rural areas, and provide a form of primary rural Local Government, the importance of which may not easily be understood by urban dwellers.

3.	They regulate the use of land on a communal basis that provides for subsistence agriculture to support many thousands of people in a manner not possible with individual smallholdings.  Without this system the influx to urban areas would be even greater.

4.	Many ~Amakhosi~ perform a low-level judicial function in terms of an authority granted by the Minister of Justice.  This relieves the pressure on the Magistrate's Courts and I would dare say, on the prisons as it involves punishment by fines, eg confiscation of cattle for the benefit of the tribal community which has suffered as a result of the actions of the wrong-doer.

Hon Chairperson, I could further elaborate on the functions of ~Amakhosi~, but time does not permit for that.  As mentioned the remuneration of traditional leaders as mutually agreed upon by the provinces concerned, under the chairmanship of the National Minister, the hon Mr Valli Moosa, is R72 000 per annum.  Our ~Amakhosi~ do not receive this amount yet, but we hope to move towards it.  When any of you complain of paying ~Amakhosi~, think of the cost of chaos in rural areas and greatly accelerated urbanisation - more than 2,5 million people live in rural communities - should the system of traditional leadership and the stability it brings, be done away with.

Hon members will be aware that there is a move to restrict the participation of ~Amakhosi~ in Local Government to that of non-voting members.  We believe that that would be unwise, and possibly unconstitutional.

With regard to the lack of wisdom of their exclusion, we fear that if ~Amakhosi~ are not full members of municipal councils, especially regional councils, the needs of rural tribal people will be neglected.  We also fear that such development that does take place in tribal areas will be undertaken with scant regard for tribal customs, and, indeed, the real rather than the perceived needs of tribal communities.  The people will themselves feel that their avenues for expressing their needs have been hamstrung.  If implemented in the form I have mentioned, the White Paper will be a blow to the economic and social liberation of rural tribal communities.

It will, of course, be argued that the tribal people have the vote in the western sense of democracy.  This is not how they are accustomed to expressing their needs.  If the process of the imposition of western democracy deprives people of traditional mechanisms of corporate expression, one has to question whether that process is in itself not a denial of democracy.  Western political theory will pretend to replace the reality of Zulu customs administered by traditional leadership.

Hon Chairperson, and hon members, this is not the place or occasion to start a constitutional argument, but I wish to make one brief observation in this context.  The new Constitution may require wall-to-wall "municipalities" through the territory of the Republic.  This (possible) constitutional requirement does not necessarily call for the elimination of "remaining areas", nor for the foisting of elected municipalities at primary level in all rural areas to replace the powers of traditional authorities.  In fact, section 151(1) contains the wall-to-wall requirement while section 211(2) states that, I quote, "A traditional authority....may function".  It is possible to read section 211 as derogating from the generality of section 151, or to accommodate section 211 within the requirement of section 151 by providing for municipalities of the Category C deeming the requirement of section 151(1) as being satisfied, at the secondary rather than primary level.

A compromise of this nature would contribute to the reconciling of the institution of traditional leadership, and its role with the role of elected municipalities.  This reconciliation would be furthered by the seating of ~Amakhosi~ with voting rights in regional councils.  They would participate at that level as do representatives of other primary Local Governments.

Be that as it may, it will be my and my Department's endeavour to maintain the present role of ~Amakhosi~ in Local Government.  In this we have the full support of the House of Traditional Leaders.  We have also been encouraged by the measure of understanding shown for our viewpoint by the Deputy President and some National Ministers who belong to his party.  We therefore hope that this matter will be the subject of negotiation and not confrontation with the ANC.

Hon Chairperson, and the hon House, I turn your attention to land matters.  Although this is a national competence, land is an inherent part of traditional life and structures.  It is therefore an important element of the responsibilities of my portfolio.

As I have said, land matters particularly as regards policy-making is a national competence.  This means that all laws pertaining to policy matters like the land reform programme come from the Department of Land Affairs at national level.

Because of what I have said, I have already said, Mr Chairman, that the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Act, 1994 is now national legislation although the Act deals with land in this Province.  It has since been amended in an effort to address certain problems which were considered as inhibiting inter alia development.  The salient points of the amended Act are that the land will now vest in the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Board, comprising of eight members plus the ~Ingonyama~ or his nominee as the chairperson of the Board.  Land within a proclaimed township, which has not been registered in private ownership shall vest in the local authority having jurisdiction over such a township.  Furthermore, the amended Act allows for land reform programmes to apply to the land held by the ~Ingonyama~ Trust.  I must say that we were and still are not happy with the latter provision as it, for all intents and purposes, transforms the ~Ingonyama~ Trust land into public property under the control of the State.  However, as a compromise we have accepted the provision in question, subject to a proviso that no land or real rights may be alienated, or otherwise encumbered without prior written consent of the tribal authority and/or community concerned.

The regulations in terms of the amended Act have now been drafted and are ready for promulgation.  The names of the persons to be appointed to constitute the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Board have been suggested and consultation between the Ministry of Land Affairs and the Provincial Government about the names has taken place.  What now remains is for the hon Premier, the hon Minister Mr Hanekom and myself to consult with His Majesty the King for his views on the candidates, as the Act requires.  The next step will be for the hon Minister Hanekom to appoint the persons concerned after which the Board will start functioning or operating.

Mr Chairman, we would like to have ownership of land in areas of jurisdiction of the tribal or community authorities transferred to those authorities.  By this I mean ownership by title deed.  This includes State land as well as tribal or traditional land.  The surveying of tribal boundaries in anticipation of such transfer is almost complete.  The ~Ingonyama~ Trust was established to hold the land of the tribal authorities temporarily while arrangements were being put in place to transfer titles in such land to the tribal authorities.  Once this ideal has been realised there might be no need for the existence of the Board, unless as a development facilitator.  It will have nothing to administer as all land shall have been transferred to the respective traditional authorities.  ~Amakhosi~ shall not rest until this goal has been achieved.

In pursuing the goal of the title deeds for tribal authorities, however, we also do not seek confrontation with the National Minister.  On the contrary, we would wish to follow the path of negotiation as we did in the case of the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Amendment Act.  In this spirit, hon Chairperson, I am pleased to report that the Provincial Cabinet has agreed to invite the hon Minister of Land Affairs, Mr Hanekom, to come to KwaZulu-Natal in order that we discuss this whole issue.  We aim to constructively engage with the Minister and our right hon friends on the other side of this House, and hopefully come to an agreement.  I hope that is going to happen.

We are also concerned about the myriad of laws dealing with the administration of land which are being passed by the National Government which erode the powers of ~Amakhosi~ to control land in their areas, and which are aimed at transforming indigenous customary land tenure systems into individual private ownership.  This is a recipe for conflict between the Government and the communities, and among the communities themselves.  It will in many instances be economically disastrous if it leads to the creation of hundreds of non-viable smallholdings.

The contribution of ~Amakhosi~ and the system of community ownership to development should not be underestimated.  Schools, clinics, community halls, roads, soccer fields and so on have been built by the communities under the direction of ~Amakhosi~ and within the context of community ownership.  We erode traditional leadership and customs at our peril.

PROGRAMME 5	:	AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES

R1,218 million, and then there is a reduction there of 35%

The two small transfer payments in this programme have not been reduced.  Without entering into the discussion of whether we may or may not fund marine research in terms of the Constitution, I wish to assure the hon members - especially the hon member Miss Barrett - that if the main programmes of my vote were anywhere near adequately funded, we would very gladly increase the grant to the ORI.

Hon members will note that we have provided a very modest amount for vehicle replacement, and even within this amount the acquisition of vehicles will be strictly limited as is required by the agreement with the National Finance Ministry in terms of section 100 of the Constitution.

Chairperson, and hon members, thank you very much for listening to me.  I now propose the adoption of programmes 1, 2 and 5 of vote 11.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now wish to call upon the Chairperson of the Traditional Affairs Portfolio Committee, the hon ~Inkosi~ Khawula, to address the House for 10 minutes.

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA:

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, hon members, I rise to mention certain things about the Department of Traditional Affairs and the Environment.  This is a Department of ~Amakhosi~, but ~Amakhosi~ will represent their communities in popular government.  There are public representatives in two capacities, where they have been placed by God as traditional leaders to cater for the needs of orphans and widows, so that they too can feel as equals and protected, as all who live in their areas, in rural areas.

It is an indisputable truth that the position of ~Ubukhosi~ here in our country, South Africa, has been something that is disliked.  Since the time that our country and the Zulu Kingdom were taken away, taken away by the English in the year 1879.  After the English Rule, the Afrikaner rule took over in the National Party.

They too greatly disliked the KwaZulu Kingdom and they did not develop people's land in rural areas.  The building of roads, schools, clinics and other developmental structures lagged behind.

If there had not been the KwaZulu Government, led by ~Inkosi~ Dr M G Buthelezi, who is now the National Minister of Home Affairs, there would not even be Magistrate's Courts today to try cases.  There would not even be management offices in areas belonging to ~Amakhosi~ in tribal authorities.  There would not even be halls for meetings in rural areas.  There would not be roads, nothing at all.

What is saddening, Mr Chairperson, is that the National Government does not know the role that has to be played by ~Amakhosi~ in Local Government, which means in their areas, in their independent areas, where they were leaders, before white people arrived in this country.

This Government seems to be doing what the Colonial Government and the Afrikaner Government did when it comes to the affairs of ~Amakhosi~ and areas of people living in rural areas.

With these words, my aim is to convey my empathy regarding the difficulty facing the Minister of the Department, ~Inkosi~ N J Ngubane.  The hon ~Inkosi~ has a good view and wishes that ~Amakhosi~ should be assisted and rural areas be developed.

But he is facing two problems.  The first one is the one I have already mentioned, regarding the disregard for ~Amakhosi~ and the taking away of power by National Government.  The second one is the mystery of the lack of funds for carrying out such noble wishes.  Four years have passed since the attainment of majority rule here in South Africa.  T/E

MRS H M BLOSE: Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask whether ~Inkosi~ can take a question]?

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Let us hear a bit, sir, let us hear Mrs Blose].

MRS H M BLOSE: I would like to ask whether ~Inkosi~ Khawula can take a question]?

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA [No, not so].  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  [I think that the hon member can proceed with his speech.  He has said that he cannot take a question.  Mrs Blose can sit down].

MRS H M BLOSE:  [No, Chairperson, the way he said it, he just said, "Not so".  He did not say he will not take it].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: No, I am an ~Inkosi~, I cannot tolerate a woman].  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  [He made it clear that he will not take a question.  Continue, sir]?

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: SLATION:  Four years have passed since the attainment of majority rule here in South Africa.  There will be voting again next year.  But, the fruits of majority rule have not been realised in as far as development on the side of ~Amakhosi~, and their right to rule over tribal authorities, managed by young ~Amakhosi~, mediating between people, developing their areas, benefitting accordingly from the funds for developing rural areas and doing this freely, without being cut short by the National Government.  T/E

MR B H CELE. [Point of order].  

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Let us disturb you just a little bit again, sir.  Here is an hon member rising].

MR B H CELE: [Sir, it was agreed that there should be no reading when speaking.  I would like to ask ~Inkosi~ to put down the paper and then continue].

THE CHAIRPERSON: [That is not a point of order.  Proceed, sir].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: [I will not do that].

HON MEMBER: There is no-one who does not read in this House].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: TRANSLATION:  The National Government must just take out money to bridge the developmental gap in the areas of ~Amakhosi~.  It should leave matters of their control to the Government of KwaZulu-Natal, which is under the leadership of Premier Mbovu and the Department that is managed by the ~Inkosi~ of the Mbovu people.  I am pleased, Chairperson.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  [We are grateful to the hon member ~Inkosi~ Khawula].  Next on the list of speakers will be the hon member Advocate Madondo, who will speak for 10 minutes.

ADV M I MADONDO:

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Chairperson, hon members.  I am very grateful for the hon Mbovu's speech.  There are some areas that I would like to speak about.  There seems to be complaints that maybe the funds for ~Amakhosi~'s land is no longer properly maintained.  It is right.  I too have that complaint, because it seems that many ~Amakhosi~ are no longer trying cases, they are deep into politics.

Another thing he is complaining about is that maybe, if ~Amakhosi~ do not have the right to vote, they may not be able to convey the needs of their areas.  My view is that there would not be a problem, because in Local Government, there are people who have been elected, who live in those areas, who know these difficulties very well, there would not be a problem.

And then, towards the end, I understood there is a big complaint that the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Act has been used.  I have a problem why that is so, because if the land is in the hands of ~Ingonyama~, it is in the hands of its owner.  Why do we want the land to go to ~Amakhosi~.  But ~Amakhosi~ do not want people to have rights to the land on which they reside.

Because to have those rights gives every person an opportunity of using his land as surety and get money.  He will also be able to have a house built for himself, because banks do not accept that people do not have land.  T/E

Chairperson, I will change to English now.  I will deal with a few issues, on transformation.  Chapter 12 of the Constitution recognises the traditional leadership, and states that the national legislation may provide a role for traditional leadership as an institution at a local level on matters affecting local communities.  It stands to reason that in the absence of this legislation the role of the traditional leadership has not been clearly defined.

Presently, the functions of ~Amakhosi~ include, inter alia:

1.	Acting as heads of the traditional authorities, and being spokespersons for their communities, and as such exercise limited legislative powers and certain executive and administrative powers.

2.	Presiding over customary law courts, and maintaining law and order.

3.	Assisting members of their communities in their dealings with the State.

4.	Being symbols of unity in the community.

5.	Being custodians and protectors of the community's customs, cultural values and general welfare.

It is self-evident that the traditional leadership as an institution is still relevant and indispensable even in this democratic country, and therefore it cannot be wished away.  However, it must undergo quite extensive transformation with far-reaching consequences, so as to enable it to fall squarely within the parameters of the democratic state.

AN HON MEMBER:  It must be democratised.

ADV M I MADONDO:  Further, to give women locus standi in the tribal courts, and to give them audience in the tribal meetings.  Lastly, to afford the women folk property rights.  I will agree that the traditional court as a dispute resolution mechanism is cheap, speedy, informal, conciliatory and accessible.  We must have these courts, especially in the traditional set up, but unfortunately at the moment there is a lacuna in the sense that the Constitution says nothing about these tribal courts.  There must be legislation, giving them some jurisdiction.  The Department of Justice is considering the community law courts where the traditional leadership will be recognised.

There should be co-operation and mutual understanding between traditional leadership and the democratically elected councillors.  Both regional, local and municipal councils must inform and consult traditional leaders regarding municipal projects or programmes within the traditional leader's area.  However, the traditional leaders must not have veto powers on the decisions of the Local Government in matters pertaining to development, because that will seriously frustrate and hamper community development in certain rural areas.  Where Chapter 7 of the Constitution allocates a function to a municipality, the municipality has sole jurisdiction over the matter.

I come to the role of traditional leadership.  The White Paper on Local Government clearly outlines the role of the traditional leadership as follows:

	The traditional leadership should play a role closest to the people.  Their role will include attending and participating in meetings of the councils and advising councils on the needs and interests of their communities.

In this regard traditional leaders will have representation on such councils.  Whether or not traditional leaders will have voting rights alongside the elected councillors has not been decided.  In the ANC's view, ~Amakhosi~ should only enjoy ex officio representation in the Local Government so as to keep them above party politics, as they should be.  However, I have subscribed to the view that ~Amakhosi~ should have meaningful and effective participation in the Local Government structures.

In view of the tasks ~Amakhosi~ are presently performing, it is appropriate that they are provided with support services and relevant training so as to enable them to perform their duties diligently, efficiently and quite effectively.

For ~Ubukhosi~ as an institution to be seen and accepted as a true prototype of impartiality, ~Amakhosi~ as the figureheads of their respective tribes must be above party politics.  The IFP unconditionally and fully subscribe to the ANC's view that His Majesty the King should be above party politics, and hence their constitutional monarch.  But when it comes to ~Amakhosi~, the IFP holds a different view.  The reason being the fear of losing support in the rural areas.

If an ~Inkosi~ is partisan he cannot be expected to fairly and impartially resolve conflicts and differences between the members of his political party and non-members.  It is quite true that in the circumstances the possibility of bias is too great.  An ~Inkosi~ who is non-partisan enjoys the support and respect as the figurehead of the tribe, from all quarters of his tribe.  He is in fact a unifying symbol in his tribe.  For ~Amakhosi~ to have appropriate understanding of the task they are expected to perform, and to have a good grasp of the fundamental human rights as enshrined in the Constitution, they should receive necessary and relevant training, otherwise chaos shall rule.

I come to the last part namely the remuneration of traditional leaders.  Prior to 1994 ~Amakhosi~ were paid according to what they had collected in their respective tribes.  After 1994 ~Amakhosi~ started receiving stipends which is determined by their academic qualifications.  The stipend received by ~Amakhosi~ is a mere pittance.  ~Amakhosi~ are better off as they receive monthly stipends whereas Izinduna receive absolutely nothing.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

ADV M I MADONDO:  ~Izinduna~ are dedicated to their social duties and they work around the clock attending to the needs of their respective tribes.  They are the people who are responsible for crime prevention, but they are excluded from receiving any remuneration.  In my view, tribal Indunas have been and are unfairly discriminated against as they are an integral part of the ~Ubukhosi~ institution.

Lastly, the hon President Mandela offered to pay ~Amakhosi~ remuneration commensurating with their role and status, but that was scornfully spurned by the IFP.  The IFP often projects itself as a defender of the ~Ubukhosi~ institution.  This is the greatest hypocrisy the world has ever experienced.  During the 20 year rule of the IFP in the now defunct KwaZulu Government, there should not have been ~Amakhosi~ who were deposed because they refused to toe the IFP line.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

ADV M I MADONDO:  There should not have been ~Amakhosi~ who received the pittance as a stipend.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!

ADV M I MADONDO:  There should not have been ~Amakhosi~ who had no vehicles and decent homes...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.  Will the hon member resume his seat please.  Order please!  The hon member's time is up.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Ntombela to address the House for eight minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
TRANSLATION:  Let me be thankful to you, Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity after my colleague, Madondo, has spoken.  Firstly, let me thank the ~Inkosi~ in charge of this Department, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, and all the ~Amakhosi~ who fall under this Province for not accepting deceit from the leader and president of the party, the African National Congress, saying he will build houses for them.  Saying he will give them fancy cars.  They disregarded that.  I am grateful, Ndabezitha, and all the ~Amakhosi~ of KwaZulu, who refused to be lured into danger.

Mr Chairperson, I would like, that when I speak to the Department of the House of Traditional Leaders, there should be silence, so that we show respect for ~Ubukhosi~ and respect the land which was given to us by God, in this country.

Chairperson, it is known that there are ~Ubukhosi~, where the ~Inkosi~ is an ~Inkosi~ of the nation.  Secondly, there is ~Ubukhosi~, which is enjoyed by chiefs.  These things are different.  That is why sir, ~Inkosi~ of Zashuka, I would like to make the distinction in this.

The arrival of white people in this country, which was given to us by our Creator God, when He created the Zulu Nation, it is this land on which He created us, there is no other.  In ancient times, ~Amakhosi~ were present.  Izinduna to ~Amakhosi~ were present and there was respect for the land, and there was respect for ~Amakhosi~ and Izinduna.  There was respect for the Monarch, His Majesty of that period.

Chairperson, when the Zulus were conquered by the whites, it is then that the whites started to create their brand of ~Ubukhosi~, where they would say a person should contribute by gossiping about the secrets of the Zulus, and they would say they would give him then the position as a chief.

It is because they conquered the Zulu Nation through a gun, that is why they called the ~Amakhosi~, that they put into positions chiefs.  You would be walking in town, Chairperson, and even a nobody will be calling another person "Chief, Chief".

Chairperson, let me thank the Chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders, the Prince of KwaPhindangene who started correcting this issue of ~Amakhosi~ and chiefs, and completely eradicating that ~Amakhosi~ be called chiefs.  Today, it is known, Mr Chairperson, that an ~Inkosi~ is an ~Inkosi~ because he rules over his people.  He is an ~Inkosi~ because he rules over his people on behalf of the Monarch.

I do not know, sir, whether my brothers in the African National Congress support the notion that ~Amakhosi~ should not be called chiefs.  I need to hear, sir, whether my brothers in the ANC agree with me when I praise the Prince of the Shenge people, who straightened the mess out that was created by the whites.

Chairperson, let us understand that ~Ubukhosi~ will always be there until the end of the world, even though I know that there are a lot of plans to try and end ~Ubukhosi~.  All this is being done by my brothers' party in the African National Congress.

Mr Chairperson, they have their own ~Inkosi~ there.  He is across over there, ~Inkosi~ Mlaba.  Sir, there is never a time when they respect their ~Inkosi~.  They call that ~Inkosi~ across there a chief.

The Government, which is led by the ANC, told the country that ~Amakhosi~ should not engage in politics, they should stay at home.  Sir, I am asking, what do they really mean by that, because a reputable political leader that we knew, the deceased, ~Inkosi~ Albert Luthuli, was leading the ANC while he was an ~Inkosi~.  Are they opposing what ~Inkosi~ Luthuli did.  I wonder if they have told this to the Luthuli family that ~Inkosi~ Luthuli did something wrong.  He was not supposed to be in politics as an ~Inkosi~.

Chairperson, this House needs to support the Department of the House of Traditional Leaders for all of us to respect ~Amakhosi~, and even their land, and return the respect which was destroyed by the whites.  What is most saddening is that the Government is making a law that says ~Amakhosi~ should not be part of voting in Local Government.  That is sad, because I have said earlier that ~Inkosi~ Luthuli engaged himself completely in politics.

Chairperson, the ANC Government is creating enormous danger.  I must say, Chairperson, that over there at Local Government level, it is where development is distributed and taken to the people who were oppressed by the Afrikaner Government.

The ANC is trying to have development for the people who reach them through other people, and not through ~Amakhosi~, so that people would revolt against ~Amakhosi~, saying that ~Amakhosi~ do not do anything for their people.  Instead of respect being given to the ~Amakhosi~, it is given to an ordinary person.  This means there is really a huge campaign to eradicate the powers of ~Amakhosi~.

Chairperson, the ANC Government must understand that we defeated the Afrikaners during that period and we are around today.  They were trying to destroy ~Ubukhosi~.  They never destroyed it.  Today, ~Ubukhosi~ is still here.  The ANC will never destroy ~Ubukhosi~, hon Chairperson and your hon House, we will fight that legislation forever.

Chairperson, let me criticise the budget, hon Nomafu, which was allocated to this Department.  It is truly a laughing stock.

Thank you, sir.  This allocation clearly reflects that those who are sitting over there are the people who are fighting to eradicate ~Ubukhosi~, so that there is no progress in ~Ubukhosi~ here in KwaZulu-Natal.  But I am happy, Chairperson, because even in other provinces, other ~Amakhosi~ have seen that the African National Congress is not a government aiming at supporting traditional leadership.  I am pleased.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you hon member].  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Naicker, to address the House for 12 minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Chairman, every nation or community will have a background of traditional history, accumulated from the past.  This area covers the language, education, religion, moral system, social customs, recreation, modes of dressing, food, arts and dance, drama, music and national communal festivals, funerals, superstitions and ceremonies.  The Indian nation is richly endowed with these elements.

Similarly, sir, with respect, the African people have a wealth of rich culture given to them as a legacy to be proud of.  Numerous facets of these traditional heritages, embracing all aspects of human development is a treasured possession of our country.  From this great storehouse of present and future generations can grow judicially and utilise all the relevant and acceptable features that will conduce towards our peace and progress, unity and happiness towards nation building.

I start on that note, Mr Chairman, with respect.  We are now involved in a debate that is indeed a sacred debate.  Our history is deep rooted on the one hand, and on the other hand, the improvement of the quality of life of our people, particularly in the rural areas is important.  I just want to refer very briefly to traditionalism.

Before the advent of the colonial rule in this country, the traditional leaders were the rulers of their subjects.  All the powers of the State were vested in them, namely administrative and judicial powers.  The rule of traditional leaders, contrary to the belief of some people was the most democratic form of Government.  The traditional leader was the chief-in-council.  The communities participated freely at all traditional meetings.  These prints were firmly entrenched in our community, and that is why the institution of traditional leaders has survived colonial rule.  We agree with Father Tiba that man may come and man may go, but these traditions will go on forever, sir.

Having said that, the National Party recognises the existence and the importance of the institution of traditional leadership in South Africa, as well as the role and function as defined in the Constitution.  We know that the provision for traditional leadership in the Constitution is not sufficient.  The National Party, in its submission to the Constitutional Assembly, proposed that those traditional leaders should be consulted in the process of writing the constitution on the role of traditional leadership.

The traditional leadership should have been consulted and required to do structured research and make submissions to the Constitutional Assembly.  Traditional leaders should have accepted joint responsibility for the establishment of the interests of traditional leaders, as well as the manner in which it was to be done in the submissions to the Constitutional Assembly, proposed working methods and guidelines in the handling of the aspects of traditional leaders.

In the existing literature there is a tendency to refer to tribal authority, that is traditional authorities.  This is partly as a result of a frank denial or rejection of the so-called tribalism, and partly an attempt to portray these authorities as conservative and stagnant institutions, which have no capacity to accommodate social and political change, and which should be eliminated without delay or at length be allowed to die out for themselves, sir.

Going a little further, Mr Chairman, traditional leadership is an old society which existed long before the colonial period.  ~Amakhosi~ or traditional leaders suffered severe oppression under the colonial rule.  Today South Africa has changed and has a democratic Government.  Traditional leaders expected and hoped for better treatment by the newly elected Government of the people.  To their great disappointment, traditional leadership, as an institution in South African society, is still faced with grievances.  It is our responsibility in this Province to address these grievances.

While traditional leaders welcome with open arms transformation, changes and reform, there is a strong feeling that these processes should not be undertaken in a manner that will cause one to lose one's identity.  South Africans still have their customs and cultures.  Culture should not be something that is static, it should change with the times.  We should not be emotional as we address these issues, neither should we rush it.  Government should not create a situation where communities, particularly in rural areas, find themselves confused.

I go a little further, sir.  I have listened to Advocate Dondo with regards to the White Paper.

AN HON MEMBER:  Madondo.

MR S V NAICKER:  Madondo, yes.  Madondo, sorry.  I have listened to his comments and how he reacted to the White Paper on traditional affairs.  If I take into account the sensitivity of this issue, and give him the respect that he deserves, I might say that the White Paper on Local Government does not entrench the rights of the ~Amakhosi~.  The right to sit as ex officio members with full voting rights in elected regional councils with jurisdiction in the area of the traditional communities.  Public representatives should be cautioned not to undermine, but to address this issue with the sanctity that it deserves.  Even in Europe, traditionalists do not get involved in the conflict between political parties, but yet they play a vital role in the governing of their country.  Let this Province, Mr Chairman, be a standard bearer for all the provinces, to promote and protect the dignity of our traditional leaders, but in no way should we ever allow, or be on record, and let history not record that we have attempted to make some of our great traditional leaders secondhand citizens.

I will continue, sir, with a slightly different subject which was not referred to in this Province, and that is the traditional subject of traditional herbalists.  That has not been discussed in this House.  Plants are our prime life support system.  They have fed the world and cured its ills since time began.  Aspirin, probably the world's most widely used drug, could not have been developed without the chemical blueprint supplied by the willow bark, and therefore we must take cognisance, Mr Chairman, of the approximately 300 non-white herbalists.  These herbalists, apart from the restrictive measures, have made valuable medical contributions to society.

I always felt that legislation should not be introduced to compound the hardships of the herbalist fraternity.  Some 40% of the world's drugs come from wild sources, or are synthesised from wild directives.  Conserving wild plants for their medicinal value not only saves lives, but makes good economic sense.  All this falls within traditionalism, sir.  The Natal Herbal Traders Association bears testimony to the role played in consolidating the aspect of traditional customs.  In healing and curing in certain countries like Zimbabwe, for example, even witch doctors are recognised by the State.  This historical traditional fraternity contributes traditionally towards creating a climate of mutual trust and respect for each of the customs and traditions.

Mr Chairman, having listened to the hon Minister's speech this afternoon, of course all of us are absolutely aware of the financial constraints this Province is faced with.  It is sad that within the Traditional Affairs Department, the increase of salaries for the ~Amakhosi~, which has been on the agenda for a long period now, has not been resolved.  The delay in the construction of the 26 district offices has also been on the agenda and needs to be addressed.

The other aspect, when it comes to addressing the problems of the poorer section of the country, the question that must be asked is about the withdrawal of the trusts, which assist in the development of rural areas without consulting the ~Amakhosi~ involved.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR S V NAICKER:  The ~Amakhosi~ courts.  90% of the tribal authorities have courthouses, sir.  These are maintained by the Department of Traditional Affairs.  Office equipment, typewriters, photocopiers etcetera are all provided on request by Traditional Affairs.  There is grave concern with regard to the dilapidated condition of some of these courts which require urgent attention.

Finally, Mr Chairman, I make a special and an ardent appeal to this House, that we consider the sanctity and the importance and let us be the standard bearers, as I say, towards preserving and protecting the dignity and respect of the traditional leaders of this Province.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Naicker.  I now call upon the hon member ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe, to address the House for 10 minutes.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, firstly, I am saying, let me rise and correct things that I heard being said by the hon member Madondo, when he says if ~Amakhosi~ enter into politics, there will be no justice.

This frightens me, Chairperson, because the hon member Adv Madondo, said he had applied to be a Judge in the Supreme Court, as he is an ANC member.  This gives me an idea that you would have had an ANC Judge who would have passed judgment on us at all costs.  That is not the truth.  [LAUGHTER]

I think the second thing is that I want to correct something that seems to be crooked, and that my colleagues across there know, that the President of the country was the President of the ANC, who respected that he was the National President and he was able to lead all parties as he leads the Government of National Unity.  I do not know where the problem is when it comes to ~Ubukhosi~.  T/E

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order from the hon member.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Is it parliamentary to do this in the House.  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  No, he should be given a red card.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We have nothing in our Rules that outlaws that, as far as I know.  Will the hon ~Inkosi~ continue please.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:  Yes, thank you.  Chair, you will have to take those people who are doing that outside this House.

AN HON MEMBER:. [They are sleeping].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:

TRANSLATION:  Let me express gratitude here, Chairperson.  I congratulate the ~Inkosi~, the hon for the contribution he has made to this Department.  It pleases us that the ~Inkosi~ was put in charge, therefore he knows very well the problems and difficulties facing ~Ubukhosi~.

I would also like to thank the hon Minister Mr Miller, for defending ~Ubukhosi~, when he took up the matter of the inclusion of ~Amakhosi~ in Local Government.  You, in the ANC were saying we were not supposed to be there, when he even took it to the Constitutional Court, and the Constitutional Court accepted that it has to be so.

He said that there would be progress in the development of the people, because of the inclusion of ~Amakhosi~.  I do not know when the ANC will ever realise these things and have their eyes opened.

Chairperson, there are many instances when we hear people saying that they like ~Amakhosi~.  Many organisations say they like the ~Ubukhosi~ of our people.  There is no more time for listening to constitutions and statements that say that we now want action.  The IFP does this.  It just does not only talk about it, it does it, it emphasizes it through actions.  That is why it has defended us, so that we could be included in Local Government.

~Amakhosi~ are contributing to the development of the public.  They are not pushed aside so that development could be done by certain people.  To demonstrate this, Chairperson, if you go to the Eastern Cape, ~Amakhosi~ have been pushed aside and there are men who are running around the nation, doing things.

People, development and ~Ubukhosi~ started a long time ago.  ~Amakhosi~ built schools in their areas.  ~Amakhosi~ provided land for hospitals, provided land for clinics.  We have done all this, which develops the nation, even roads.  ~Amakhosi~ do that.  It is not with the advent of the ANC that development is taking place.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  I wish to remind members that I have a plentiful supply of these yellow cards.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 
HON MEMBERS:.  [INTERJECTIONS]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order please! 

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 
TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, I think we would not be having this problem about ~Ubukhosi~ if the ANC, particularly the President, had fulfilled the agreement made at Skukuza, where it was said, discussions about the affairs of ~Ubukhosi~ will take place after the 1994 elections.  If international mediation was accepted to discuss the issue of ~Ubukhosi~, we would not be in this problem.

Chairperson, I am not surprised by this howling from the ANC.  They are doing it because they are not hon people when it comes to agreements they make.  If that agreement had been fulfilled, this problem of postponing talks about ~Ubukhosi~ would not be there.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:.  [INTERJECTIONS]!

THE CHAIRPERSON:.  [Continue, sir].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, protect me, they want to hit me.  It would be better if they do not hit me.

Chairperson, if this Act, this White Paper on Local Government, leaves out ~Ubukhosi~, and municipalities are erected in areas of ~Amakhosi~, it will be then that we begin a problem of conflict.  Just now, as I was going up and down, going out, I was solving the issue of minibus taxis.

We were trying to solve that, but there we were trying to solve problems of existing conflict.  What is being done by the National Government through this Act that the National Government is talking about?  It is creating a similar situation.  It is trying to perpetuate it.  We know that it is trying to create a situation where it is said that ~Amakhosi~ are the origins of conflict.

In this White Paper on Local Government, the hon Minister Valli Moosa says he wants to investigate ~Ubukhosi~ and find out if the present ~Amakhosi~ are fit or not.  Who is he, after all?  ~Ubukhosi~ originates from families.  Protect me, Chairperson, there, again he wants to hit me.  Protect me, Chairperson, Cele wants to hit me.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:.  [INTERJECTIONS]!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please, I am going to start using these cards against the members,.  [Continue, sir].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:. 

TRANSLATION:  ~Ubukhosi~ originate in families.  As I am an ~Inkosi~ of the Mdletshe people, it was discussed a long time ago.  That is not Mr Valli Moosa's issue.  It is not for him to determine whether or not we are fit, we have a Department.  If the Department is to place an ~Inkosi~, there are people who go out and investigate whether or not that person is fit, and then that person can enter ~Ubukhosi~.

I am having difficulty, Chairperson, that the hon member Cele is pointing a finger at me.  He is pointing at me with his finger.

I wish to say that, Chairperson, when you examine the structure of the home, it is based on ~Ubukhosi~.  That is why there are Princesses, there is her Majesty, there are Princes, this represents ~Ubukhosi~ in a home.

So what is confusing these people in the ANC?  What is confusing you, my people, to think that Valli Moosa is now going to investigate about us.

Chairperson, I want to say that if there is peace in rural areas, it is because of ~Ubukhosi~.  We fight for peace and we defend it, because our installation as ~Ubukhosi~ is about defending nations for which we are in charge.

Where ~Ubukhosi~ is absent, you will find problems of conflict.  That is why we are present and there is peace.  When you speak of peace, you are speaking directly about ~Ubukhosi~.

I wish to say, Chairperson, that we are in trouble right now, because of these National Government policies.  In some areas ~Amakhosi~ have not been given the right to try cases and solve problems in their areas.  If you give the right to try cases and solve problems to ~Inkosi~, you would have given that to that nation.  That is why, in tribal courts, all of them have to be present and contribute.  

Chairperson, give me additional time.  For a while now they have been trying to hit me.  [LAUGHTER]

I think in that way, when you deprive ~Ubukhosi~ of those rights, you are depriving people of the right to self-determination.  People who should remember that customs are what gives people the respect of life and of being human beings.  We do not need the Bill of Rights, because customs provide dignity.  I want you to hear me properly.  Protect me, sir.  T/E

HON MEMBERS: [INTERJECTIONS]!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can I interrupt this debate please, sorry.  I think the hon members on my left are overdoing this.  Can they please try and restrain themselves a little, and allow ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe to complete his speech.  The hon member is left with half a minute now.  I have stopped the watch.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  I think you will give me extra time, sir, because they interrupted me.  What I am saying is that customs provide dignity for each person.  If we had looked at that while we were creating the Constitution, we would have understood that customs are the basis of giving a person dignity.

It is because we are holding discussions with people who do not want to talk and rectify the country.  People who think that their will should be done.  This country will not be free if you live like that and you will not benefit.  T/E

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, I think I should correct something, and protect the chair you are in charge of.  I have seen the mistake happening several times, Chairperson.  The people across there are disrupting your functions that you are conducting so professionally.  They are interrupting.  Indeed, the time has come that they should be seen receiving red cards and exits, sir.  T/E

AN HON MEMBER:.  [You are not the Chairman here]. 

THE CHAIRPERSON [I have given members on the left-hand side a direct and strong warning that they stop or minimize the way they are conducting themselves].  The hon member has 15 seconds.

AN HON MEMBER:.  [Sir, I would like a bit of his time].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE [Should I stop, Chairperson]?

THE CHAIRPERSON: Just stop, sir, so that we can hear whether it is a point of order, or what].

AN HON MEMBER:.  [Yes, more especially to the Induna.  We are not here to try cases in the Induna's meeting place.  The ~Inkosi~ is still speaking and we are listening].

THE CHAIRPERSON: [That is not a point of order.  Can we allow the hon ~Inkosi~ to proceed with his speech please].

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.  I hope that you have carefully listened to what that member has been saying because it is not a point of order.  It is abusing her rights in this House, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is why I am saying the hon ~Inkosi~ must proceed.  Order please! Order please!  I have made a ruling on that one.  I said that it is not a point of order, and the hon ~Inkosi~ must complete his speech.  He is left with 15 seconds.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, I am grateful, although I am not well protected.  As you can just see, these people want to hit me.  But what I want to say, Chairperson, is that this country will only be free when we look at who we are, because if you do not know where you originate, it is not easy for you to know where you are and where you are going.

We come from customs.  In order to begin to create a real constitution, we must look at what customs we have, and then start from there and proceed.

Chairperson, I am sitting down now, because I can see they are going to hit me now.  They are now very angry.  I thank you.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON: Before I call upon Mr Nel, can I again make this request please.  We say time and again that heckling is allowed in this House, but please let us not overdo it, because it disrupts the other speakers while they are on the floor.  Can I call upon the hon member Mr Nel to address the House for 12 minutes, according to my amended list.

MR W U NEL: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, I heard that Mr Mdletshe is talking about the issue of international mediation.  The DP did not understand what that international mediation would have told us, that we here in this country, do not know.

If ~Inkosi~ says the hon Moosa cannot investigate the affairs of ~Ubukhosi~, I agree, but I would like to ask what people from overseas can tell us, if it is so.  Although it is so, I would like to support him in that, since this thing has been agreed upon, why did it not take place?  Because if the African National Congress had agreed that it would take place, then all of us would have liked to see it happening.

Chairperson, I would like to proceed and talk about the issue of the Zulu language and customs.  You know, that when we go overseas, we like to see what those in overseas countries, like Germany, or Japan, or wherever, are doing, taste their food, hear them speak, listen to their language and listen to their music.

When we go overseas, we think that all of this is beautiful, but when we are here in our own country, we do not respect all what is among us, even if it is the Zulus, or it is the Sothos, or it is Afrikaans, or whatever it is, we do not respect it properly.  The English say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do", when you go to Rome, you have to act as the Romans act.

You do this because you respect the laws, customs and other things of that place.  Even here, we are to do that.

I heard the hon ~Inkosi~ mentioning that that is why they brought Ambrosini.  All right.  I do know that, but we too, we have to respect all that we have here, language and customs, all that is diverse, because this is what makes even outsiders want to come here to see how we live, how we conduct ourselves, something that makes us respected in the world.

There are places such as Makhosini near Isandlwana, there are many things we can show overseas people when they are visiting us, or things that we too can go and see that we have not yet seen with our own eyes.  I know that when we visit Durban, where the hon Naicker's in-laws live, they can bring us curry.  Something that is so hot when it enters the mouth and it remains hot right through until it comes out.  [LAUGHTER]

This means that the time has come for us to be willing to see all that we have.  T/E

MR S V NAICKER:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we listen to the point of order from Mr Naicker please.

MR S V NAICKER:.  [Our Mr Nel is overcome by curry].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member proceed please.  That is not a point of order.

MR W U NEL: 

TRANSLATION:  No, Chairperson, I like curry very much, but sometimes it makes my eyes watery.  But the time has come for us to wake up and see all these opportunities that we have here in our country, respect and perpetuate them.

Even in this House, I wish that Zulu could be spoken by more people, most especially because language is something dynamic and continuous.  New words should always be added.  We see this a lot, even in my language, Afrikaans, there are many things that do not have names, such that it becomes necessary to coin a word and put it in, speak it and they are used mostly in areas such as this House, until the public gets used to those words.  This is something we need to look at even within this House.

I want to continue, Chairperson, about customs and the affairs of ~Ubukhosi~.  In the Democratic Party we agree that ~Amakhosi~ should wear different hats.  The hat for customs, the hat for the position of ~Ubukhosi~, but they should be permitted to wear the hat of being elected and be in Local Government, or the Provincial Government, or the Government in Cape Town and Pretoria.

We agree that that is good, particularly because ~Amakhosi~ are respectable members of society.  This means that these are members who are able to come here, or wherever they have been elected, and contribute a good idea, which is accepted by outside people.  But we are saying that the hat should be separated from the hat of customs.  They are two things.

We do not go along with what the African National Congress is saying, that ~Inkosi~ should be divorced from politics, because wearing that hat, ~Inkosi~ will not be able to separate public issues and customs.  We will not accept that, because if ~Amakhosi~ cannot carry these two hats, it shows that they are not the people we perceive them to be, people who are respected as we see them.

What saddens us, is seeing the Government running away from the truth.  We heard that ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, spoke about the function of ~Amakhosi~, which is similar to that of Local Government.  Functions related to land and functions of the Courts.  Now, we in the Democratic Party say it is wrong to pay ~Amakhosi~ with the notion that you are paying them for the position of ~Ubukhosi~.  We are saying that it is wrong.  We are saying, if you continue on this route, you will end up bribing ~Amakhosi~.

There is a member of the Democratic Party, Mr Van Zyl Slabbert, who took the phrase that says, "The pen is mightier than the sword and changed it to say that in his view, pension is mightier than the sword.  And that is true.  And if you continue to financially compensate ~Amakhosi~ with funds that come from the Government, we will end up with the issue of bribes.  With that, we are saying it would be better if the Government would honestly tell us what functions it wants ~Amakhosi~ to perform, to rectify Local Government, or about the land, or in particular about the Zulu Law they lay down as a Court, and pay ~Amakhosi~ and the staff assisting in those functions.  That can create the support for ~Amakhosi~ that is more than the financial support they are currently getting from Government.

I would like this thing to be speedily investigated until we get to the truth, because I heard here ~Inkosi~ saying that there are many organisations who say they like ~Amakhosi~.  We like them, we respect them, and all that.  But when we investigate properly, we find that no, there is another agenda beneath that, and it is not supposed to be so.  We have to reveal the truth now about what we are saying regarding ~Ubukhosi~, and follow the path of that truth without deceiving each other.

Chairperson, I want to conclude with this.  Maybe some people say what is being said by the Democratic Party demonstrates their lack of respect, or that they do not like ~Ubukhosi~.  That is not so.  We have said that ~Ubukhosi~ should be divorced from politics, but ~Amakhosi~ should not be prohibited from entering politics.  But that function, involving customs, should be separated and placed aside, and if ~Amakhosi~ enter politics or Local Government, or Provincial Government, or whatever they are permitted to, they should be compensated.

We wish that in maybe the following year, we will eventually get the truth about the issue of ~Ubukhosi~, and not disagree, especially when we are going to elections.  We should not disagree about this and disagree about lies.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member. 

AN HON MEMBER:  Can Mr Nel take a question?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  His time is up unfortunately.  He will be taking another person's time.  I now call upon the hon member Mr MacKenzie, to address the House for eight minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE: [Chairperson and hon members of the House].  I congratulate the Minister on his report, but I do not praise anyone for the paltry budget allocation to this very important sector of our society.  How can three million people led by some 286 odd ~Amakhosi~ be expected to have been adequately served in their rural areas with such a minuscule amount.  The voters will express themselves in righteous indignation against this skewed form of priorities which virtually ignores the traditional leaders and their people. Nel, where are you going?  Go and sit down, I will talk to you again].

KwaZulu-Natal has 52% of its population in rural areas, this in itself is remarkable, because it is above the world average, and what is more, it has been controlled by ~Amakhosi~ very ably for well more than a century.  The real threat to the wellbeing of the rural people is that of non-delivery of promised development and services.  This does not only apply to KwaZulu-Natal, but also the Eastern Cape where we are told reliably that the neglected rural people will protest with their vote by either staying away in huge numbers, or voting for any other party which understands their plight, but never again the ANC.

You will remember what I said earlier in this House, that when the hon President Mandela was asked why there was little or no evidence of pre-election promises, his reply, which is now a part of our political history was, [You never tell the truth to a girl when you are courting her]  [LAUGHTER]

A further clear indication of the ANC strategy regarding ~Amakhosi~, and the clear intent to sideline them, because they are a form of the authority which threatens ANC blanket control, is to try and legislate for their exclusion from full participation in regional councils by denying them the vote.  It is abundantly clear that ~Amakhosi~ exercise authority and discipline over their people, and it is further an accepted fact that the ~Amakhosi~ are acting within their constitutional rights as people and recognised leaders.  So the denial of a vote is a crude attempt to reduce their status, and to send a message to their tribal subjects that they are no longer recognised as the leaders.  But as I say, the voters will show this unholy alliance just how stupid they are.

To recognise in all truth what the standard of living is in rural areas, is to see a people teetering on the brink of starvation.  A people devoid of hope of deliverance from their penury.  A society which, in order to survive is forced to go to the towns, live in vile squatter camps, see their children subverted by criminality, prostitution and sexually transmitted diseases, and themselves to die in total disillusionment.  The promised land portrayed by the ANC is a myth, [fable].

The IFP has never promised the people any unattainable Utopia.  These same people were once recently able to live proud independent lives, and now find that through no fault of their own, but as a direct result of a universally failed doctrine being imposed on them which has drastically increased unemployment, and reduced reliable services to a maybe status, life is now truly a guessing game and nothing any longer is taken for granted.  It is a case of the rural people being out of sight, and out of mind. [Over the hill, those who touch our hearts are not visible].

The continued prevarication of Minister Hanekom, the hon, with regard to title or no title, or title for tribal authorities, but not ~Amakhosi~, or title for the tribal authority with the ~Inkosi~, leads us to shake our heads in wonder at this pre-election tap dance, where the decision is made not in the interests of the tribal peoples, no, but in the interests of manipulating the people in order to gain some theoretical voter support in grey areas.

On the one hand, agricultural development is dependent on title for start-up capital, but on the other, it seems as though the ANC fear to give anything to the ~Amakhosi~.  It is feared that this whole debate will in the words of a learned friend of mine, be stillborn like so many other ideas that are coming out of the hodge-podge think-tank at the top of the ANC. [We are truly being led by fools].

The ~Amakhosi~ and the members of their tribes all want the title in the name of a tribal authority.  I reluctantly support the budget.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Mthembu who will speak for 10 minutes.

MR S B MTHEMBU: 

HON MEMBERS:!  [INTERJECTIONS]!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!

MR S B MTHEMBU: 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MR S B MTHEMBU: 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR S B MTHEMBU: 
TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to stand up and take this opportunity to comment on such a serious matter where we are talking about ~Ubukhosi~ and our origin as people.  I am tempted that when I begin talking, I begin where our nation started in order to become a nation, by reminding this House that we are a nation because of [One of King Shaka's praise songs, who rose in anger from his kraal and it was until dawn that those in other kraals were telling us].  

We are this nation because of a white man, [A hawk that I recognised by its flight pattern at Mancengaza and it vanished at Phungasha].

I want to say this so that all of us here remember that during that time the white person, Zwengoje, when he peeped there were many of them, there were many ~Amakhosi~, even the Bathembu people, we were ~Amakhosi~, we were under the rule of ~Inkosi~ Ungoza.  We were ~Amakhosi~, but because of Zwengoje, a feather that gulped down on the other side of the mountain and it continued to gulp down, eating men and men of no account.  What was pleasing is that as it ate some, it ate others, while eating some, it ate others.

Why am I saying this?  I am saying this, Chairperson, for the reason that today, ~Ubukhosi~ of our people, if we follow it correctly, we cannot say without equivocation, that it is the same ~Ubukhosi~ that was made for us by Ilembe, that refers to King Shaka, or ~Ubukhosi~ which were made for us by Pewula and others after ~Inkosi~ Cetshwayo was taken to Robben Island.

Sir, who is in charge of the programme, in order for things to be right, the father of the House has to rise in determination and look for the medicinal potion to cure a disease in his household.  In this sector we are addressing, the father of the House, maybe he should take his sticks and go out and find something that will guide him on what we should do to ensure that ~Ubukhosi~ of our people are correct and straight.

I am saying this, because it is very difficult to explain to someone the type of ~Ubukhosi~ that we want in our area, KwaZulu, or the entire continent.  We are saying this because the traditional ~Ubukhosi~ has been tarnished, it was tarnished by the way it was structured.  

The greatest disgrace, Chairperson is that we talk about ~Amakhosi~, but we fail to distinguish who we are talking about.  Are we saying ~Amakhosi~ are those who were placed in positions by Pawula.  If we say that those are the ~Amakhosi~, what are we saying about those traditional ~Amakhosi~ of the Royal line?  Are we giving them the same status, are we placing them at the same level as the traditional ~Amakhosi~ of the Royal line, which means these are now our traditional ~Amakhosi~ of the Royal line.

On this side of the House, I am responding to the matter mentioned by ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe, that they are tired of organisations saying they like ~Ubukhosi~.  I want it to be clear that on this side of the House, we are not saying we like ~Ubukhosi~.  What we are saying is that ~Ubukhosi~ is something that belongs to us and that we want to correct it so that it can live for us and be appropriate for our current times, our tomorrow, in order to know the sequence of what happened yesterday.

Let it be crystal clear Chairperson, that what we are saying is that ~Ubukhosi~ of our people has never been around and unchanging.  In truth, ~Ubukhosi~ of our people is dynamic, but what is nice about it, is that it changes to accommodate the circumstances of the time under which the nation lives.  Today, we are in a situation where we find ourselves with the problem because of existing change.  There are some ~Amakhosi~ who are chairpersons of regional authorities and when you listen to what the status and powers of that ~Inkosi~ are in that chairmanship, you will find that ~Inkosi~ has enormous power, he rules over other ~Amakhosi~.

The truth is that I am not trying to say that is bad or that is good.  I am trying to say that those are changes that enter into being governed and in our ~Ubukhosi~ as a nation.  Therefore, in all the sectors where we are supposed to initiate change, let us agree without having to look back.  I wish to make it clear on the issue of the disgrace as the hon member says, I emphatically agree, it is a disgrace.

Here you will find that you cannot speak to an ~Inkosi~ governing over the people before he can contact another ~Inkosi~, which is the ~Inkosi~ that rules over them, and then it will depend on the person who was talking, did he say something appealing to that ~Inkosi~.  If it was not appealing, that person will not be accepted, even if he said something constructive and even if he himself, ~Inkosi~ and the community with whom he was talking, understood each other.  

Chairperson, I am not standing here to talk about what exists or what does not exist.  I am rising so that we can pin-point the cause of our ~Ubukhosi~.  The point I just want to make is that changes that build a nation will always be accepted.

I want to move to a point, a point that says, sir, who is in charge of the programme, on this side of the House we praise and would like that ~Amakhosi~ should continue as ~Amakhosi~ forever, performing the functions of unifying the nation.  Performing the functions of preserving the unity we had before.  Performing the functions of preserving our beauty as a nation and our origin.  We are then saying, for us to achieve that, ~Amakhosi~ should contribute by availing themselves to all who are working to build the nation truly and honestly.

There should not be a dispute over equality between ~Inkosi~ and the elected one, so that the elected one, a person democratically elected, should not be an equal of an ~Inkosi~.  It is necessary for us to give the ~Inkosi~ status.  We have no other way of placing an ~Inkosi~ in an appropriate position except at the top, where everyone who works diligently will be under the rule of ~Amakhosi~ who have been placed in positions by the nation because of their respectability.

You can then see, it is then that we will be able to talk about things we will agree on.  That there will be no words of dispute, as if there is equality between the people of an ~Inkosi~ and their ~Inkosi~.  It is then that ~Amakhosi~ will properly understand that on this side, we are fond of them, we respect them.  On that day when things become crystal clear that we are given an opportunity to define our origin.

Because we fought for many years for this freedom we have today, what we are actually saying regarding the structures is not to destroy, even if it can take a long time for us to be listened to, but the truth stands that if we are given a hearing, it can become crystal clear that what we are saying is not meant to destroy, but to ensure that our future is on course and satisfactory and it even represents the future generation.
 
I am under the rule of Velaphi Majozi, let it be clear to the other side that true leadership, leadership that can be developed and that can develop a nation it is present on both sides.  We have never once said that contributions of developing this nation will come from a single party.  What we are saying is that when we are building anything that is ours, it will be necessary for us to come closer and hold each other closer so that what is said on that side, and what is said on this side, could integrate and become one thing that will build a nation for us in future.

Chairperson, when summarising, I wish to say that the structure of ~Ubukhosi~ in provincial traditional affairs, functions in a disappointing way, a way that clearly indicates that there is still a lot of work that we are supposed to do, Mr Minister.  
In about 15 meetings we have held, you can find that the matters we have discussed are similar, because of lack of direction.  If the structure that deals with matters of ~Ubukhosi~ is not strengthened and taught, taught even about providing issues which are appropriate points of discussion to build the nation and ~Ubukhosi~, we will find ourselves without success and our ~Ubukhosi~ will not function properly.  If that part can be dealt with speedily.  Thank you.  T/E

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  I am rising on a point of order on a very serious matter.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let us hear the point of order.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Regarding your speakers list, where ~Inkosi~ Mlaba is addressed as Chief Mlaba.  I think this is objectionable, unless he has decided to be called Chief Mlaba.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  I do not accept it.  We do not accept it, and I am calling for a correction.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will leave that in the hands of the Whips who are the ones responsible for the drawing up of the list.  I now call upon the hon ~Inkosi~ Mathaba to address the House for eight minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we have some order please.

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: THE CHAIRPERSON: Sir, your time is up].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: , it seems as if you have cheated me].

THE CHAIRPERSON [No, sir, do not bring an ill omen here.  I have something here that guides me].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA:.  [Therefore, thank you].

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for having this opportunity to express myself.  I think that maybe the first thing is about the Order Paper, as the hon Mr Mkhwanazi says there is something amiss.  I think that everything is as it should be, just because the discussion is about ~Amakhosi~ and that they should be investigated by Valli Moosa, those chiefs, there is nothing amiss.

I say firstly, let me express gratitude for the Minister of this Department who is also an ~Inkosi~ of Zashuke not a chief who is an ~Inkosi~, for the way he is managing this Department in a commendable manner.  

Firstly, I say it would be good for us to clearly and openly state that any government that will govern, but fail to co-operate with ~Amakhosi~ and the people of ~Amakhosi~, it will find itself in misfortune and it will find itself in difficulty.  Why am I saying it will find itself in difficulty?  We have written history, we have recorded history as the hon B Mthembu has mentioned.  The ~Amakhosi~ who ruled before, how they were oppressed by the rule of the English, the way they were oppressed by the rule of the Afrikaner, similarly, again, we can see that the current Government is also walking in those footsteps.

When I listen to discussions it seems as if what my brothers are raising is good, but I want to say, my brothers, that you have an hon member here in this House who is a respected Minister and whose other name is Mr J G Gedleyihlekisa which literally means "slander him while you laugh with him".  I am not sure whether you are also slandering us while you laugh with us, but the answer is yes, it is so.

I am therefore saying that the Afrikaners failed and this Government also failed.  I am saying, I want to give a warning regarding what you are trying to do.  ~Amakhosi~ have struggled enormously for their nations and their people.  Many people have put forward the work that ~Amakhosi~ have done for the people.  Here are the hon Mr Adv Madondo and others who come from down there at Msinga.  

Despite the oppression that existed, he was under the rule of ~Amakhosi~ and studied until he mastered knowledge.  But if I can say today, he eventually has a farm for keeping pigs, also in the area of ~Amakhosi~.  [LAUGHTER]  He asked for land from ~Inkosi~.  He even achieved academic honours, but if these academic honours that he has are not quite genuine, then they must be fraudulent.

I am saying to you, my people, ~Amakhosi~ will always be there, whether you like it or not, they will be there until the return of Jesus Christ, ~Amakhosi~ will be there.  Even if you can try in any way to do away with them.  I wish that the nation knows that when we are here, I think we are here to represent people's development as they are the people who voted for us.  If we are going to say wrong things and engage in mud slinging, I think that it will not go well.

I wish to respond to the member, it is bad because he has even left the House, the hon Mthembu, when he says when ~Inkosi~ is placed in regional authorities, he becomes a ruler over the ~Amakhosi~.  I am saying that that is a mistake.  There is no ~Inkosi~ who goes to another ~Inkosi~ asking for what he should be doing.  

Here is an ~Inkosi~ sitting next to me.  He is a chairperson of a regional authority.  He is only placed there as a chairperson, as it is so in our case here.  There is the hon Mr Mohlomi who is in charge of this Parliament.  It is also like that in regional authorities.  There has to be a person who leads, not that that person is now ruling over ~Amakhosi~.

I think that the hon Mvelase did not dress properly this morning.  He mixed things up and wore skin and a tie, that tie he is wearing.  It is the skin he is wearing today that caused his confusion.  He was supposed to be nice and formal.  Therefore I am saying I wish to make a correction in that area.  When we go to ~Amakhosi~, when we talk of democracy, ~Amakhosi~ have that in their courts which were built for us by the hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane and which were built for us by the hon Dr M G Buthelezi.  Oh Shenge, you have built courts for us, my God, they are so beautiful.

I have not seen a single court that was built by Mandela people.  We have never had kangaroo courts.  In my court, in our area at Macambini, when I am sitting in that chair, I look to see are Izinduna present, whom I regard as prosecutors and I assemble a group of people who have the right to respond and ask questions.  It is then that the ~Inkosi~ can issue a proper judgment.  Now, I do not know, because there are no courts as democratic as those of ~Amakhosi~.

Now, in conclusion, let me express gratitude on behalf of ~Amakhosi~ for the money, the little money which ~Amakhosi~ had been given.  ~Amakhosi~ will work diligently, Chairperson, as they have been honest without receiving anything.  I am saying, let me support the proposal made by Mr Madondo, that Izinduna should also be considered.  We are sure we know that our Izinduna work, I am saying, in our co-operation.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Next on the list is the hon member and Chairperson of this House Mrs Gasa, to speak for eight minutes.

MRS F X GASA:  Mr Chairperson, this vote gives me an opportunity to clarify many misconceptions about traditional affairs.  I would like to thank ~Inkosi~ Ngubane for guiding, and handling this Department with expansive wisdom and vision, Uy~Inkosi~ ngempela Nomafu.  Your entire Department, and the Portfolio Committee under the guidance of ~Inkosi~ Khawula needs also to be commended for supporting you as you are working under trying situations where people, especially the ANC wish to bury this Royal institution.

Any black person who scorns ~Amakhosi~ is burying the nation.  I have been listening to my colleagues across, hoping that they will answer Baba Ntombela's question as to whether they are really serious when giving honour to ~Inkosi~ Luthuli, because he also shines up.  Once you scorn ~Amakhosi~ you are also bundling him up with all ~Amakhosi~.

Look at the entire continent of Africa.  Communities have survived because of the true democracy they uphold.  If you want to get to know true democracy, you must see how the ~Amakhosi~ rule in their courts.  We cannot single out a sporadic incident or a few corrupt individuals, and attack the entire system, in the process attacking even those who are honest.

TRANSLATION:  ~Amakhosi~ are not employed and their status signify that.  If ~Amakhosi~ earn a poor salary, that makes ~Ubukhosi~ a disgrace to the people.  It is the National Government that causes ~Amakhosi~ to be without anything and to be in poverty, and then those who are educated and those with a lot of money look down upon ~Amakhosi~ and ~Ubukhosi~.  

There is no-one who can be ruled by a person who does not have money, who does not have a house, who does not have children who go to school.  That is why we are pleased, Nomafu, if there is money that will come in here.  T/E

The IFP have always been constant in their protection of ~Ubukhosi~.  The hon member Advocate Madondo accused the IFP of hypocrisy.  He forgets that the ANC is only now beginning to come closer to ~Amakhosi~, because of the forthcoming election.  They will dump them after the election after receiving their votes.  They have a very long history of dumping their members.  If that was not so, we would not have this new born party, the UDM.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS F X GASA:  Another example of hypocrisy, which I wish to cite, hon sir, is the deliberate exclusion of ~Amakhosi~ from the Constitution making process.  You want them there.  Even the White Paper does not convince me that they are going to operate properly. you just want madam's pet dogs that you will place here to rubber stamp].  You need to have a look at the White Paper before you praise it.

When I think about the World Trade Centre experience, 

TRANSLATION:  It was the IFP which went and comforted ~Amakhosi~, who were called in from Contralesa to come and listen, without making a significant contribution, but when it came to discussing matters of ~Ubukhosi~, they were dumped.  Again, it was this IFP which went to help and comfort them and those who had brought them in, no longer cared for them.  T/E

I am talking history now and it is something that really happened. [I am not talking about something they said at bus stops or at shops].  I am surprised to see how some of the members are suffering from loss of memory. [Terre Blanche hit me and made me strong.  That is why I am facing you directly].

The hon member Mr Nel was so clear when he stated the position of the DP on ~Amakhosi~.  Yet, there were times, Meneer, when we were engaged in the writing of the Constitution where some members of this House did not want to do as the Romans do.  At that time we were pleading for the position of the King and ~Amakhosi~. 

MRS F X GASA:  .  It is one of the 11 languages in South Africa.  My duty is not to interpret, but to teach you more about traditional issues.  Sir, I am gratified that the Minister  touched on the issue of the increase of women in meaningful positions.  This is true to form, because we know that he is gender sensitive.  I think I must correct a wrong perception, that women are oppressed in our communities.  This has been taken, unfairly, out of proportion.

TRANSLATION:  A woman's place, if I can remind you - ~Ebokhosini~, and in humanity - is a place that is extremely elevated.  When they start troubling her, sometimes she is not being troubled because she is a woman, but she is being troubled because of her character and her actions.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MRS F X GASA:  One minute? Let us not teach people that they are being excluded in places of ~Amakhosi~].

In conclusion, hon Sir, I do not want to be party to those people who do not listen to you once you have made an announcement.  In conclusion, Sir, let us remember that traditional affairs is such a viable and a very interesting Department, it is only that that all of us, as we are here], we are traditionalists.  The Afrikaner, the English, the Indians, the Zulu, the Sotho.  I-problem [Your problem is just that when one says traditional ~Amakhosi~, then there is extreme jealousy, but if we properly understood] the English must keep their traditions.  We can make this Department a very viable and an exciting Department.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now call upon the hon member ~Inkosi~ Mlaba, to address the House for 10 minutes.

~INKOSI~ Z M MLABA:  Chairperson, once again the Minister for Traditional Affairs has spoken and raised his concern about the departmental underfunding, and budget cuts almost along the same line as last year's budget debate.  I agree with the Minister in this regard, for we expect an efficient, effective and smooth running Department.  The expectations of the communities cannot be met if the Department is underfunded.

I feel I must say something about the performance of the Traditional Affairs Portfolio Committee.  Chairperson, this Committee meets regularly once a month, and it has dealt with the formation of the House of Traditional Leaders, Council of Traditional Leaders and ~Ingonyama~ Trust Act Amendment, etcetera.  But the Committee has no information on how the House and the Council of Traditional Leaders functions and operates simply because there are no direct reports from these two bodies.  The person who deals with the process of appointing members to the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Act should report to the Portfolio Committee.

I must not forget to mention our serious concerns as the ANC.  We believe the portfolio should be involved or be part of the process to install ~Amakhosi~.  The Portfolio Committee is procedurally accountable to this House and so should the Department and the House of Traditional Leaders be accountable to the Portfolio Committee.  If the hon Minister can look into what I have just mentioned it will surely create the good and smooth running of this Department.

Chairperson, there is another important issue the Department must also recognise, and I am not aware if the Department is doing something about it.  This is the issue of the people who have been displaced from their areas under ~Amakhosi~, by political violence and political differences.  I think it is high time that this Government helps our people who wish to go back to their areas.  Again, the Portfolio Committee must be involved in representing this House in doing so.  If the Minister and the officials can look into this issue of the displacees, the better it will be for the Province.

I went through the Department of Traditional Affairs' Annual Report for 1997, where the achievements by the Department were highlighted.  Among the achievements, of course, the development of the traditional authority areas.  I am touched by the fact that a number of traditional communities have had funds allocated to them for the maintenance and renovation of courthouses.  These courthouses badly need attention as they are in a very bad state.  These courthouses can be used by rural communities for various occasions, such as social events and even for the meetings of different committee's.  We would like to see all these courthouses in the Province being cared for in the same way.  We are also aware that the Department received financial assistance from the Department of Public Works to build new courthouses.  That raises the hope that the Department will also ask the Department of Works for further financial assistance to build new courthouses for the ~Amakhosi~ who are still sitting under the trees.  The rest of the development I believe is in the hands of the regional councils and ~Amakhosi~ since they sit in on council meetings.

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA:.  [Mr Chairperson].

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Let us hear ~Inkosi~ Mathaba].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: I do not know whether Chief Mlaba will take a question].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member take a question?

~INKOSI~ Z M MLABA:.  [No, I will not take it].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA:.  [He is scared because he is talking nonsense].

~INKOSI~ Z M MLABA:  Chairperson, one of the important elements of development is workshops and training.  Our ~Amakhosi~ need to be trained on facilitation, management and proposition of the projects as they are expected to be involved in many forms of development in his or her area.  These workshops will also help to end the current conflict between ~Amakhosi~ and elected Local Government councillors.  Local Government councillors and ~Amakhosi~ need to know exactly what the roles and functions of both the ~Amakhosi~ and elected councillors are.

The Minister of Housing, in his budget speech yesterday, stated that the housing subsidy scheme will be applicable in the near future, in the traditional areas.  We listened with interest that PTOs will not be seen as stumbling blocks by financial institutions.  Chairperson, the people in the rural areas, especially those under ~Amakhosi~ jurisdiction also deserve to be assisted to get housing subsidies, if they so wish.  Our rural communities must be encouraged to develop proper housing without losing their culture, customs and traditions.  That is why ~Amakhosi~ are there to ensure that transformation, democracy and the development of the community does not interfere with their traditions and customs.

Chairperson, it would be appreciated by our rural communities if the Department can review and correct the mistakes made by the previous Governments who destroyed ~Ubukhosi~ by deposition, and indefinite suspension, and replaced them with those who could be manipulated for political reasons.  We have some rightful heirs who are still waiting for this new Government to reinstall them to their rightful positions.  We all know what Sir Shepstone did to the Zulu Kingdom.  We know what the Nationalist Government did to our ~Ubukhosi~ institution.  The Minister, as an ~Inkosi~ himself, will consider to help those ~Amakhosi~ to be reinstalled in the near future.

Chairperson, I will conclude by supporting the budget.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, ~Inkosi~ Mlaba.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi, to address the House for 10 minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: [Thank you, Chairperson.  Firstly] I want to clearly put the PAC's case.  We of the PAC do not subscribe to the fact that our ~Amakhosi~ are referred to as traditional leaders.  We refer to it as royalty, because in England they do not refer to Queen Elizabeth as a traditional leader.  They say, "Her Royal Highness".

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Therefore our position is that this Department for ~Amakhosi~] when the PAC takes over it will be referred to as the House of Royalty.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  On a point of order please.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order from the hon Mr MacKenzie.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Her Majesty, not Her Royal Highness.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  It was a point of information.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: 

TRANSLATION:  It is because I am speaking in English, which is not my language.  Let me proceed from that, Chairperson, I am saying we, the PAC, agree that ~Amakhosi~ are the ones who make the most contribution in defending this country.  If ~Amakhosi~ did not defend this country, this country would not exist as it does.  

They fought when the colonists tried to rob us of our country.  Truly, if it was not so, there would not be anything that is Zulu, there would not be anything that is Sotho and Venda, or anything else.  Most especially here in KwaZulu, there was fighting.  I just missed asking the Minister this morning when it was said they would like to have a commemoration of the Anglo Boer War.  I want to know if we too will be allowed to have a commemoration of the Battle of Isandlwana or the Battle of Ondini.

Secondly, here in our area, KwaZulu, the colonists or other white rulers, said our Monarch should be called a Paramount Chief, but our people in KwaZulu fought and he remained an ~Inkosi~, although they were calling him a Paramount Chief.  We have to accept that.

Proceeding from that, ~Amakhosi~ are the ones who are taking care of the land for the nation.  It is not true that an area of an ~Inkosi~ implies ownership in English.  ~Inkosi~, as a father of a nation, the land is for everyone.  It is also not true to say the ~Inkosi~ dictates who should build where, it is the nation.  The ~Inkosi~ asks the nation to allow so-and-so to build, let us correct this, because they are the things confusing people.

Secondly, ~Ingonyama~ Trust Land is the only area we can pin-point in KwaZulu.  It is the only area that can be pin-pointed as land for Africans.  Other areas are no longer for Africans.  There is indeed a problem, beautiful Africans, in trying to marry the old way of governing and the new way, but it is not the way of solving the matter that when an ~Inkosi~ is speaking, there is howling.  Even if I can be howled at it is fine, because I am actually not an ~Inkosi~.  Just because we are equal, it does not mean it is all right to trample to the ground that person who has a certain status.

I am saying, it would be right to correct this matter.  Let us sit down about it, we Africans, other nations are laughing at us.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!

MR J D MKHWANAZI: I did not hear, sir]?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  [I am just calling for order, Ndonga, continue with your speech].
 
MR J D MKHWANAZI: 
TRANSLATION:  Oh, we also disagree that there was no democracy in our tradition.  And this issue of women, women were respected.  There were people like Mkabayi of Jama, there were Ntombazi of the Nxumalos, of Zwide, there was Mjaji over there, above at Venda.  T/E

HON MEMBER:.  [There was Msweni].

MR J D MKHWANAZI: 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Baba?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute for the hon member.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: 
TRANSLATION:  Oh, just do not mention Msweli.  Now, to stop all this debate, I repeat, I am saying we should sit down and correct this issue, correct it properly as Africans.  Let us not engage in politics. 

We also agree that ~Amakhosi~ be given money, because ~Amakhosi~ are no longer assisted, weeds are no longer hoed out for them, no-one ploughs and cultivates for them.  Therefore, as Mrs Gasa says, they have to be given money which will allow them to live and not to be beggars going around begging, because that leads them to corruption.

Also, it will not be right if ~Amakhosi~ do not become part of the political way of governing the country, as my colleague here said.  What we are only asking for is that ~Amakhosi~ should respect that today they are wearing a political hat and that today they are ~Amakhosi~.  ~Amakhosi~ should permit all organisations to enter their areas and talk to their people and canvass people in their areas.  Also, when I go to ~Inkosi~ Mr Khawula, I will ask him to even come to my meeting and speak to the people in his presence, because I am not opposed to ~Ubukhosi~.

What we will have to correct here in KwaZulu, Africans in KwaZulu, the Constitution is dead silent about the Monarch.  Does this mean we are also silent?  That is not right.  The issue of the status of the Zulu Monarch should be corrected because we fought for that right.  Are we saying we should now start another battle and arm with spears fighting for ~Ubukhosi~ of KwaZulu, and yet we are the ones now in government.  Who will we fight, that is what I wanted to ask, who will we fight?

Let me emphasise that everyone who is here in this land of Mthaniya is under the rule of ~Inkosi~ of the Zulus, regardless of his country of origin or whether he is white or grey, or whatever.  Everyone born here such as my friend Nel, is a person of the ~Inkosi~ because he was born in the land of the ~Inkosi~.  His umbilical cord is buried in the ~Inkosi~'s country, and his father was buried here, because it is the reason he has a claim to the land, because truly, we the Zulus, divide the land according to where we buried our forefathers, that is our title deed.  We cannot then chase Nel away, saying he should leave, because what will he do with his father's grave and his grandfather's grave?

Oh, that is why I say Mr Chairperson, good Africans I beg you in God's Mercy that when we are talking about the issue of ~Ubukhosi~, we should do so respectfully, and even when we are at our homes, sleeping with our knees up, we should think about how we can correct this matter so that we can stop arguing over ~Ubukhosi~.  Thank you Chairperson.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now have the honour to call upon the hon Reverend C J Mtetwa, to address the House for 10 minutes.

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):

THE CHAIRPERSON: 
REV C J MTETWA:  

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, I always have a problem, non-believers do not listen.  Chairperson, above all, I will start by thanking and praising the hon Minister ~Inkosi~ Ngubane's speech, particularly because today we are speaking about this important Department that is now called the Department of Traditional Leaders in modern Zulu.  

I wish to say, Chairperson, and the hon House, today when we talk about this Department we are talking about our African heritage.  When we say we are Africans, we mean that which is true and genuine Africanism.

I proceed, Chairperson, and mention that I say with pride, that ~Ubukhosi~ and its programme is something that was established by God himself.  Although it is sad that as the walls are cracking because of noise, it is black people, Africans, who are causing the discord.  

If Nel here - and I am not sure if he is an Afrikaner or German -and Naicker over there, are able to clearly understand what is being said.  ~Ubukhosi~ was in existence when white people arrived in this country.  This nation of KwaZulu was in existence when they arrived.  But if the descendants of those ~Amakhosi~ are the ones causing this noise because they disagree in some area about ~Ubukhosi~, that is a disgrace.

There are many things we could discuss in this House to straighten out the situation, but because our people, the mission's religion is used by black Americans overseas in what is called brainwashing, we have been greatly brainwashed, Chairperson, until it became dangerous.

The day merely ends while there are very important things which we were supposed to talk about in this structure and which we have not discussed, because we are supposed to shout at the top of our voices and argue, saying that we are teaching each other about ~Ubukhosi~.  

If it is a person from KwaZulu, the rule of ~Ubukhosi~ is what used to bring peace, which I think that if, in this country, we want peace, we need to first find justice, ensure that there is justice in the country.  Without justice there will be no peace.  Peace in a country is what makes a nation comfortable and have a growing economy.

Here, today, we have a problem facing our country, which is today caused by disregarding policies and processes of justice, but without justice in a country, peace, as I have already mentioned, will not exist.  Peace, if we want our country to have peace, well-being, comfortable living, a growing economy that has benefits, we have to again fight so that there is peace and respect.  This is brought about only by a country that has justice and it is governed in a way that has justice and honesty.  There is no justice where there is anarchy.  As there is peace in African nations, it is because they were governed.

Today, as there is talk about salaries for ~Amakhosi~, salaries for ~Amakhosi~ really is not something we are too fond of.  We have to understand this.  When the white government was trying to modernise, they said that ~Amakhosi~ should take all the funds to court.  Now they are going to be paid a salary.  ~Inkosi~ was never paid a salary, because the funds were for ~Amakhosi~.  ~Amakhosi~ enjoyed life, they never went hungry, but because the funds were taken to the courts, they will now be paid a salary.

Therefore, we are not begging, we are calling for their rights.  That is their right.  We are not asking because ~Amakhosi~ should be paid a salary because they are poor, it is because the rights belonging to ~Ubukhosi~ was taken away to a fund, and then they would be paid a salary.

Instead of us, as communities, looking at how much interest can be paid from those funds that can really pay a salary for an ~Inkosi~, we are just roaming, saying crooked things.  Oh, even my friend Mthembu says ~Inkosi~ Mathaba is wearing hide.  Even in this country's Constitution, there is provision for ~Ubukhosi~ in two verses, in Chapter 22 of the Constitution of the country it is stated there, it is there in just two clauses.

I am saying this, Chairperson, if we look at past years, what is confusing us as we have these problems, today, as the entire country is in conflict and has a lot of noise, we are in conflict because of new laws that are being legislated by the Government.  To say that our Government has made a mistake, I say that it has not really made a mistake, but what causes it to make a mistake is what we are doing, comparing each other, pretending and copying.  

On account that during 1991, 1992 to 1994, overseas, in countries like America, the issue that was widely discussed was the one of ending pregnancies, called Abortion Laws, laws about homosexuals, laws about prostitution, children's rights, saying that children should no longer be beaten, something that was widely discussed overseas.  And we too became confused by thinking that for us to be internationally visible and to be heard that we are fine and we have seen the light, we should begin with these laws.

We started on the wrong foot.  I am saying we started on the wrong foot because we started with matters that place us at odds with God.  If we are going to do these things, let me say, if I say these things place us at odds with God, I am going to say, oh, Mrs Mkhize ...

Oh, it is such a serious matter.  I was saying, Chairperson, I will just cover a brief area.  Especially when we examine closely what God says here in the book of Jeremiah Chapter 6 verse 16, it says: 

	This is what the Lord says: Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.  But you said, `We will not walk in it'. 

	Isaiah 24 verse 5:  

	The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.

	Isaiah 24 verse 6, here lies the danger:

	Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt.  Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left.
  
	Isaiah 9 verse 16:

	Those who guide this people mislead them, and those who are guided are led astray.

With these few words, Chairperson, I thank and support the policy statement of the Department of Traditional Affairs, but it will be necessary that, Chairperson, you will remember I made a request, there is a standing proposal that I raised and it was accepted by this House, I said we should some time have a caucus of the whole House where we will be able to talk properly, explain things properly and know where you stand, I stand, where you stand and why.  Because this confusion you are creating does not lead us anywhere.  It was agreed, this House has a tendency of not keeping its promises.  Thank you, Chairperson.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  [Thank you Nyambose.  Because it is an older person, I said no, let me just keep quiet and allow the hon member to finish.  His words of advice are lucid].  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Edwards, to address the House for seven minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  It is a pleasure to follow on the hon Minister Mtetwa, because I agree with many of the sentiments he expressed, especially that we need peace and justice for economic progress.

First, I think congratulations must go to the hon Minister for his frank budget speech, and to the Secretary of the Department Mr Raubenheimer on an excellent Annual Report.  I address in the main programme two traditional affairs.  The amount that has been provided in the budget of R22,4 million is woefully inadequate to meet the main purpose of assisting the management of traditional affairs, and traditional affairs in this very traditional community oriented Province.  In addition, the budget reflects a reduction of some R2,1 million or 8% on that provided last year.  That is really a backward step.

Meaningful development of our traditional and rural communities is essential, if we wish to progress into a winning Province, in so far as education, peace, security and economic development is concerned.

There must be full involvement of traditional communities in leading development in traditional Government to a truly democratic order and to ensure genuine rural development.  The people do not want hand-outs, they want assistance to provide the community and their leaders with a means to promote and achieve real economic progress.

For this reason, Mr Chairman, the funds provided must be wisely utilised.  Some R9,6 million is allocated to various tribal and community authorities, with priority being given to the provision, renovation and completion of administration offices and courthouses.  In addition, this allocation is to help tribal authorities appoint suitable personnel and a portion to subsidise the salaries of tribal secretaries.

It is pleasing that in the interest of promotion of orderly development, and good governance, various essential directorates are in place.  Traditional constitutional affairs, which includes the affairs of the House of Traditional Leaders.  There I agree with the sentiments of ~Inkosi~ Mlaba who spoke earlier, for closer relationships and ties in reporting to this House.  Perhaps even the odd joint sitting between the House of Traditional Leaders and ourselves.  Development of administration comprised of socio-economic development, which includes staff, institutional and project development.

Projects had an amount of some R200 000 allocated for grants in aid for some nine small projects.  There is some cause for concern.  Not only is this a woeful allocation, but the priority set for certain tribal authority areas, particularly in the KwaZulu-Natal Midlands region there are communities who feel that they are continually being bypassed in the allocation of development projects.  This needs to be looked at, and make sure everyone gets a fair turn in what is given out for development.

The directorate of land utilisation.  This directorate certainly has a daunting task.  The centrist power hungry ANC has kept land affairs as a national competence, but the directorate administers formal legislation on behalf of the National Department.

It is a very vexed question indeed, Mr Chairman, as to the use of land under the control of some 286 tribal communities.  While limited permission to occupy certificates are granted for trading, church, school and residential purposes, the ownership of land is a matter which needs to be resolved.  I think very urgently resolved.

The present regulation of land use by the ~Amakhosi~ is, we know, a long standing traditional role, and which I am not at all qualified to pass judgment on, I assure you of that.  However, I do believe policy for the future right to private land ownership is something traditional leaders have to address.  Before it is too late.

As an English-speaking South African, and a person with an ancestral Western European background, I respect the traditions of all our peoples.  My grandparents on my father's side were Welsh and English, and immigrated to the Eastern Cape as missionary school teachers in the 1880s.  On my mother's side, her father was an Irish Catholic from County Cork following the gold rush in the 1880s.

AN HON MEMBER:  Did he find any?

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Oh, no gold, but he married an Afrikaans-speaking woman of French-Huguenot descent, and joined the boers in the fight against the British in the Anglo Boer War.

We whites who are part of the rainbow nation are descendants of mainly Dutch, British, French, German, Jewish, Greek and Portuguese forebears.  The main body of the early pioneers arrived in South Africa during the 17th and 18th Century, and are very much part of the development of the socio-economic fabric of our country.  All these people brought with them their own traditions, skills and heritage, and most are still very protective of their cultural, language and religious traditions and heritage.

It is interesting, Mr Chairman, to note that the population of South Africa at the start of the century, back at the first census in 1904 consisted of some 3,5 million people of African origin representing, as we know, many language and traditional groups, and the people of non-African origin totalled some 1,7 million people.  By 1986 those of African origins totalled some 20 million and other origins 8,5 million.

I believe we all respect the rights of our many cultural and traditional groups to support and nurture their own culture, and traditional values, and heritage, and this should be part of the strength of our rainbow nation.

We all applaud the end of ~Apartheid~, and the transition to real democracy.  As a non-Afrikaner, who were the architects of the constitutional ~Apartheid~, it had existed in colonial days throughout Africa, and also in countries which were colonised, other countries.  The Americas, Australia and even India for a long period.

I am aware of the difficult times of social and economic deprivation that the Afrikaner people suffered during, and after the Anglo Boer War.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  And then the depression and drought of the 1930s when 60% of the Afrikaners were known as poor whites.  While I certainly do not support the discriminatory methods used by the old National Party, the reformed National Party they were then, one must have some admiration for their fight for economic and cultural independence.  In the same way, Mr Chairman, as we support all people's rights to their own advancement.

I support, Mr Chairman, the rights of our traditional communities, and traditional structures, and it is essential we support that change be brought about in an evolutionary, not revolutionary way, through the meaningful role of traditional leaders within their respective structures.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.  With that I do support the budget rather reluctantly.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Edwards.  Now I wish to call upon the hon member Mr Mtetwa, to address the House for 10 minutes.

MR S N MTETWA:  

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, I thought that I was going to comment on the hon ~Inkosi~ of the Mbovus, unfortunately he has gone out.  I was going to say, oh no, the harshness that he sometimes includes in his speeches has really subsided.  That is good, he should continue with it.  It demonstrates growth.  

His speech is not harsh.  I am saying, maybe something that we will have to agree on is that we are adults and we have been in this Parliament for four years.  This thing of continuously complaining, complaining, complaining, Chairperson, will have to stop, we will have to stop it.

There were discussions and discussions here on ~Amakhosi~ and the pittance salary.  There was a proposal, it was said that ~Amakhosi~ should be paid a salary by National Government.  We held our heads and complained.  Today it has been agreed in all the provinces that no, ~Amakhosi~ should get at least R6,000 per month, which is R72,000 for the whole year.  

We are now complaining that there is no longer any money.  We are the ones who are now complaining.  Maybe today we should be saying no, this is a child from above, it is okay, father will see how he is going to pay them, if the decision is like that.

Here we want to cause a quarrel between ~Amakhosi~ and people elected to regional councils, as if we do not understand that it is one government with three branches, the national branch, the provisional branch and the lower branch at Local Government level.  We want it to be as if the presence of ~Amakhosi~ will take the place of the people elected to Local Government, something that is not so.  

Unless we say that there should be a special way of selecting ~Amakhosi~, and I do not even know why we would say ~Amakhosi~ should be selected, because ~Amakhosi~ were selected while in the womb. There is this thing that we often remember and sometimes we agree, saying ~Ingonyama~ Trust confused us as we have now amended it.  We forget two things, the first one is that these men will change things a day before elections.  We are not saying anything about them, because they created the problem that we are in.  We are wriggling in this matter.  This thing was altered with only two days left.

Secondly, when we talk about land in 1913, we must say 87% of the land belonging to people was taken and they were left with 13%.  We have to understand that.  It is as if we forget that land was taken, it was just taken from the people, all the people.  When we talk about land to be returned, it should be returned to the people, it should return to the people.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:.  [INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER]!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order please!

MR S N MTETWA: 
TRANSLATION:  We need to ensure that land returns to all the people who have the authority and right to the land.  It seems as if people are divided, they cannot even trade with each other and lend each other money.  It is because that authority was taken away and we still say it should be taken away.  Then it must return to the people.  T/E

HON MEMBERS: [INTERJECTIONS]!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!

MR S N MTETWA: 

TRANSLATION:  Sir, ~Inkosi~ the hon Gabhisa, I clearly heard you just praising the KwaZulu Government and criticising the National Government.  I also heard Mr Mahlobo here, his Induna, criticising the National Government and praising the Government of KwaZulu.  In fact, someone else sometimes says, I also agree with him.  

Do you not know, my brothers and sisters, hon members here, council, that the problem we have in the country was caused by the Afrikaners.  The problem we have in the country, it is sad that R40 billion per month goes out to service the debt annually.  That money is multiplied approximately two times with some addition, compared to the funds that sustain this Province alone.  R40 billion could come to us, multiplied two times with some addition.  No-one is talking about that.

There is talk about the Government of KwaZulu which did not over-spend.  Others say no, in fact the KwaZulu Government could not have over-spent, because it did not do much.  Money was used for this and that, some of which was placed there in a safe place, as you can just see so many people without anything, but I do not know whether that is true.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order! Order please, hon members.

MR S N MTETWA: 

TRANSLATION:  I empathise with ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe, no, I agree with him in this first portion where he commends the President of the country, who personally sacrificed his life for the country and for us all, saying, even today, he is not wary of any one because of his nationality, his gender and his party.  

And then again, he too joins his people in confusion, criticising him and even criticising saying, who is the hon Valli Moosa, when he talks in this manner, who is he?  Here he is imitating him.  Shouting that he is heard throughout this House. He does not understand that there are two papers, there is the White Paper on Local Government, which discusses the Local Government structures.  There is the White Paper, currently being compiled, which will discuss traditional leaders.  Now he is mixing two separate things.

I agree with the hon Mvelase when he says there are some ~Amakhosi~ who were placed in positions by Pewula.  When it is said that there is a need to look at the actual ~Amakhosi~, then one will have to look at that, because ~Ubukhosi~ is actually ours.  Those who do not understand history.  

I was disappointed because the hon member, Mrs Gasa, the respectable one, I heard her saying it is only now that the ANC is beginning to associate itself with ~Amakhosi~.  But I think that she knows history, that in 1912 the African National Congress, history says it had the House of Traditional Leaders.  In our ANC structures it is not something that started now.  Do not then reverse things that is an old issue.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please! 

AN HON MEMBER:  African Native Congress. 

MR S N MTETWA: 
TRANSLATION:  The hon Mr Mkhwanazi, had a slip of the tongue when he bit more than he could chew.  He was talking about what would happen next year in the issue of ~Amakhosi~ when they have taken over.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.  The hon member has one minute.

MR S N MTETWA: 

TRANSLATION:  I think that the hon member meant that if we have taken over that would happen.  Maybe the last thing I want to say in this remaining minute is that, Chairperson, we have one Government in one country with one President.  Let us also try and be part of building this country.  

When it is said that it is able to make money to the tune of R250 billion if it were not for these things that are causing our budgets to shrink, because they are being paid off, if they were not being paid, we would live with them.  Let us do it effectively and be part of doing that and not talk as if we are in another country.  Thank you.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you to the hon member].  Order please!  I know am going to call upon the Minister.  Could you please pay attention, hon members.  I am now going to call upon the hon Minister to reply to the debate.  Can we give him a hearing please.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  Mr Chairperson, and the hon House. Land must come to the people.

 [I think, Chairperson, that maybe I should thank very much the members of this House for the way they spoke.  One member even said that land must come to the people. I think that when I start over there with ~Inkosi~ Khawula, ~Inkosi~ was right in that], there is too much hatred from other political parties, especially towards the ~Ubukhosi~ institution.  Really, I do not know why.  What is very sad is that such hatred and animosity comes from our black brothers and sisters.  Really, we are very disappointed. 

TRANSLATION:  Indeed we are greatly disappointed if we see what is happening, because at the time I presented this budget speech, I was thinking there was going to be a discussion about the things entailed here and say what you see and how it could be corrected.  But this thing of yours, it demonstrates a dislike for ~Amakhosi~.  It is just, in fact, because we are not getting anything, there is nothing that is being contributed, being brought in, that would make us realise what needs to be done.  

That is why I am really saying, a person is sometimes disappointed, especially when it comes from our people, black people.  The hon member here, an advocate, a senior magistrate, Madondo, I agree with him when he says in some areas ~Amakhosi~ are no longer trying cases.  That I will follow up.  I should investigate that.  If it is true, ~Amakhosi~, are no longer trying cases in their areas of jurisdiction.  T/E

As far as the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Act is concerned, I do not agree with him, because even His Majesty agrees with us that Minister Hanekom should issue a title deed in the name of the tribal authority, not in the name of an ~Inkosi~.  That is what you people misunderstand.  We do not want a title deed in the name of an ~Inkosi~, it should be in the name of the tribal authority.  It should be a collective title deed, belonging to the tribe, not to the ~Inkosi~.  It is what our King wants.  It is what he wants.  Therefore I think you should know that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  And then I do not think really by getting that, we will be depriving people of getting loans from the bank.  What the hon member is saying is due to inexperience, as far as what he is trying to propose to ~Amakhosi~.  I think the hon member is uninformed, he is busy misleading his party.  In fact, he has got nothing to contribute to this House as far as this whole issue is concerned.

.  [I am not sure what it is that could help the hon member to understand, so that he can understand what ~Amakhosi~ really want].

The hon member said ~Amakhosi~ should not be involved in politics.  I think the hon member Mr Ntombela was quite correct to say that, but why?  When the great late ~Inkosi~ Luthuli was the President, he was the big President of the ANC and he was a member of the ANC during that time.  During that time everything was good within the ANC, when the late ~Inkosi~ Luthuli was their member.  Just because in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, the majority of ~Amakhosi~ supported the IFP, it is now wrong.  That is wrong.  Because this gospel is being preached in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  In the Eastern Cape and the other provinces where ~Amakhosi~ support their party you will not find people talking in this manner.  They come here and talk this - I nearly said rubbish, but it is not rubbish you know.  That language is not parliamentary.  I did not say it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security): 

TRANSLATION:  I agree with Mr Ntombela when he says what I have said.  Truly, as he has been telling you, we will all have to do like-wise.  You will have to know, as Mr Ntombela said, ~Amakhosi~ are not asking for anything from people.  ~Amakhosi~ want their rights as ~Amakhosi~.  

They are not asking for anything from people.  To the new Government, ~Amakhosi~ are not saying that they should be given what they did not have.  We are saying, the Government should leave us with what we already have.  We are not asking for anything from you, therefore, do not worry too much, because we are not asking for more.  We are saying we want what we had.  This glass that they say is filled with water, that is what we want, and you can take the entire jug.  That is what we are saying.  So why are you complaining?  That is the situation.  T/E

I agree with everything the hon member Mr Naicker said.  In fact, he also emphasised democracy on the side of ~Amakhosi~.  I have been saying that all the time, that we as ~Amakhosi~ are not new to democracy.  People think that it was only after 1994, especially after the elections that the term "democracy" came into existence.  We are not new to that.  We started that a long time ago, before you people were even born.  That was when we started democracy in South Africa.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  I also agree with the hon member Mr Naicker when he says that traditional healers must be recognised.  I am happy, because even the present Minister of Health in the Province, recognises traditional healers.  That is how it should be.  In fact, I think he must teach a lesson to some of the members on that side, that if he as the Minister recognises traditional healers, why do they fail to recognise traditional leaders, and traditional communities?  Why?  What is stated in the Constitution?

I agree with the hon member ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe.  He is correct in saying that we won all the cases that were put across to us. [As you lay charges against us, you know that saying we should not be part of the regional council.  We won the case at the Magistrate's Court and you passed it on to the Constitutional Court].  We won the case again to prove that you were wrong.  There was only hatred, as I have said, and animosity towards the ~Amakhosi~.  That is why these cases were brought against us.
, [When we say that ~Amakhosi~ should be members] of regional councils with voting rights.  We are not mad to say that.  You cannot contribute and put your ideas across during a meeting and when certain issues are put to the vote you are sidelined.  How can you do that?  We must be members of these regional councils with voting rights.  We must vote.  Then others say, no, no, the aim is to protect the dignity of ~Amakhosi~.  They must not vote.  How can you protect my dignity when I voted for you in 1994?  That is why you are a member of Parliament today, because I voted for you in 1994.  I was an ~Inkosi~ in 1994.  Next year I will be voting for you people.  Once I have voted for you and you have been placed in a senior position then you sideline ~Amakhosi~ and say no to ~Amakhosi~.  Why?

In fact, at national level we have a Council of Traditional Leaders.  ~Amakhosi~ vote at national level in the Council of Traditional Leaders.  We have Houses of Traditional Leaders in the provinces.  We vote there.  We attend regional authority meetings.  We vote.  We vote everywhere, but when it comes to regional councils they say no to ~Amakhosi~.  But why?  That is the problem.

I think the hon member Mr Nel is correct in saying when in Rome do as the Romans do.  It is correct to say that.  When we are in traditional authorities, do as they do.  It is just like that. [It is just like that, there is nothing else.  South African people, especially black people, have to learn that here we have to talk and discuss].  We must all engage ourselves in discussions.  

[Do not think that you will just prescribe that ~Amakhosi~ should do this and that and then ~Amakhosi~ would say, yes.  We will not accept that].

We are prepared to sit down with you.  That is why even the Minister of Land Affairs, Minister Hanekom, is coming to this Province to discuss this issue of title deeds with traditional authorities.  We want to discuss this issue with the Minister.  When I was in Rustenburg attending a MINMEC meeting on land affairs, the Minister said he would have agreed a long time ago, but the problem is the ANC in this Province.  That is what he said.  He said you people, you are his problem.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):  You are the problem to your colleague.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security): 

TRANSLATION:  I do not think I should expand much on that issue of paying ~Amakhosi~, because as Nyambose was saying, here, ~Amakhosi~ are paid.  We do not ask for anyone's money.  Firstly, we want to be paid with the money from our people.  That is the first thing.  We are not asking for money from anyone.  We want to be paid with the money from our people.  

As Nyambose was saying, ~Amakhosi~ are no longer taking any funds from the people.  Money for cases, money for laying charges, money for levy, all the money goes to the National Fund, the Trust.  Therefore, we are asking that we be paid from funds from our people as it was the case before.  

Therefore, you do not know what the problem is.  Even then, if those funds were not there, where is the problem in saying ~Amakhosi~ should be paid.  Are ~Amakhosi~ not human beings, are we not human beings?  In fact, what do you really want?  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order from Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Chairman, on a point of order please.  Mr Chairman, I am having a lot of difficulty in hearing the hon Minister.  Mrs Blose, on this side, has a running commentary going.  I do not mind interjections, but a running commentary is something quite different.  Please, I want her to keep her tone down.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can the hon member Mrs Blose please not interrupt while the Minister is speaking.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security):

TRANSLATION:  We are very grateful to Mr Mackenzie when he emphasised about these funds.  Mr Mackenzie also spoke at length about the matter of title deeds that I have talked about.  He also spoke at length about the issue of ~Amakhosi~ in regional councils.  Thank you very much.

We have also heard the hon member Mr Mthembu, he said his piece.  T/E

The question is what do you do to address the matter if there is a problem?  In fact, it is the question that I have been asking since I started replying.  If people are complaining about something in the institution, what are they doing to correct the situation?  What contributions have you made in order for us as a Department to correct the whole situation?  I did not gain much  information from most of the members, because they were just attacking and condemning the institution without really telling me what to do.  What do you think I am going to gain from that?
, [~Inkosi~ Mr Mathaba also spoke here, saying] I was surprised when I received the speakers list.  We are all referred to as ~Amakhosi~ on the list.  It is only ~Inkosi~ Mlaba who is referred to as Chief Mlaba.  I think it is because his party is totally against the word "~Amakhosi~".  They think to say "Chief" is an honoured word.  To refer to us as Chiefs is an insult.  We do not honour that.  But if you prefer to call him Chief, and he agrees to that, that is fine.  That is fine, no problem.

TRANSLATION:  Let us go over there to the hon member, Mrs Gasa.  I agree a lot with the hon member on the matter that the ANC Party is really not serious.  It is really not serious about ~Ubukhosi~.  When it comes to discussing ~Ubukhosi~ one can see that really sometimes they think this is just a place for games.  You sometimes exaggerate in playful jest.  You can see that you are not serious when there is discussion about ~Ubukhosi~.  T/E

You people fail to give yourselves sufficient chance of discussing the whole issue., [You take it as if it is just a game.  That is what is irritating, that is what the hon member was saying, that truly he is telling the truth when he says because of this thing, the way you handle things, ~Ubukhosi~ have been weakened.  That is why] 
even in other provinces where you had the support of the ~Amakhosi~, you have lost the support, because of the manner in which you handled this delicate issue of ~Amakhosi~. 

TRANSLATION:  I am begging you that we should come, sit down and talk about the issue of ~Amakhosi~.  It is of no use attacking ~Amakhosi~, because it will not cure the situation.  The issue needs to be discussed so we can see how it can be solved, because even at the Kempton Park talks you did not accept anything that was proposed about ~Amakhosi~.  That is why we are in this problem about ~Amakhosi~ because from the word go, you could not accommodate anyone talking for ~Amakhosi~ or on behalf of ~Amakhosi~.  T/E

Just recently they are not going to vote.  [That is what Contralesa said], they are not going to vote for the ANC next year just because of this.  Akuwona ~Amakhosi~ aKwaZulu-Natali kuphela wonke ~Amakhosi~ in the whole Republic of South Africa against your policies.  [It is not only ~Amakhosi~ of KwaZulu-Natal, all ~Amakhosi~ in the whole Republic of South Africa].  They are totally against your policies.  That is why the ~Inkosi~ is now cross.  He has decided to leave.  [LAUGHTER]  Because he is angry with your policies.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Mkhwanazi spoke very well, saying here, ~Amakhosi~ organised this country.  If you go into the entire history you will find that ~Amakhosi~ organised this country.  ~Amakhosi~ fought and died for this country.  ~Amakhosi~ were imprisoned, languished in the prison cells, dying for this country.  

So then when the country has been returned, it is being said ~Amakhosi~ are not supposed to be in politics.  That is what is being said now, but they are the ones who were dying, they are the ones who were incarcerated, ~Amakhosi~.  When the country has been returned and is now in order, then ~Amakhosi~ are no longer supposed to be in politics.  T/E

It is just like building a road where you use a bulldozer.  After the road has been levelled and tarred, the people start saying, "No, no, the bulldozer will destroy the road".  It is just the same thing, 

TRANSLATION:  What are you saying here?  Therefore I agree a lot with Mr Mkhwanazi when he says these are the things we have to do so that we can arrive at a point of governing properly.  If we listen properly to the advice presented by Mr Mtetwa, the Minister, the hon Mtetwa, you should know what you really have to do when you talk about these things.  T/E

Just look at the hon member, he is not even listening, because he is just not interested.  He is a doctor, he is just not interested in listening.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security): [We agree with Mr Edwards, when he says the ~Amakhosi~, the Department has been given insufficient funds].  

It is also correct to request the House of Traditional Leaders to work and co-operate with the Portfolio Committee.  That we can do.  That is a wise proposal.  The ownership of land is to be resolved.  I agree with him.  It is what we are talking about here.  That is why I referred to this matter in my budget speech.  I thought the other hon members would then make proposals, put their ideas across as to what do they think we should do about the situation.  But instead they are just talking, talking, like that lady over there.  Just talking, talking, talking.  


TRANSLATION:  I am not sure about what the hon Mr Mtetwa says regarding the issue of ~Amakhosi~ working with councillors.  We do not have a problem with ~Amakhosi~ over there working with councillors.  We do not dislike councillors.  What we said, even to the Minister, is that councillors took over our functions and we were left without work.  T/E

People must understand this.  Politicians must understand this. 

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! 

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and Safety and Security): than after five years the same politicians will go to our people and ask them some questions. [If it turns out that we, ~Amakhosi~, are told that we must do nothing in matters of developing the country or anything that develops the country], then after five years what are ~Amakhosi~ doing for you? 

Our people will be correct in saying we are doing nothing, because by that time we will be doing nothing for our people.  The same politicians will go back to our people.  Do you think ~Amakhosi~ should be paid by the Government?  Our people will be correct to say no, because we will be doing nothing for our people.  We will be offering no service to our people.  Do you think the institution should be protected?  Our people will say, "No, what for, if the institution is not servicing us".

This is a process by you people to eventually try and get rid of the whole institution.  This is a process, I am telling you.  If it is not a process, why are you failing to address it? 

I am very happy, Mr Chairman, to have replied to this budget speech.  Thank you very much.  I would like to thank those hon members who have contributed positively, and even those who criticised constructively.  We are going to attend to those criticisms.  I therefore propose that the budget vote be adopted.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Minister.  Now we have come to the end of the debate on vote 11A on Traditional Affairs.  We are not going to vote on it, like all the other votes.  We will vote at the end of the Committee Stage of this House.  At this point I wish to hand over to the Speaker of the House to close the day for us.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 18:03
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 18:03

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  May I request the Deputy Chair of Committees to make a report.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon Speaker, the Committee of Supply has met and deliberated on vote 11A.  We have not concluded our business, and we wish to sit on the next sitting day of this House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That brings us to the end of today's business.  Dr Sutcliffe.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hon Speaker, I rise to raise a matter with you which is of some importance, and I believe, to this House.  It is a request that this document that the hon leader of the House handed out this morning, actually be withdrawn from the House. Firstly, in going through it, there are at least five committee reports, namely Safety and Security chaired by an hon member of the ANC, the Private Members Bills Petitions Committee report also chaired by an hon member of the ANC, the Local Government Committee report chaired by myself, the Discipline Committee chaired by yourself, the hon Deputy Speaker, the Education report chaired by the hon Roger Burrows that have been completely omitted from this report.

Secondly, there are a huge host of issues, I have listed at least six, not just around spelling, typographical errors, grammar and layout, but matters of some concern.  It lists only partially the Acts that were passed last year.  It lists some Ministers, for example, who are not Ministers and who were not Ministers during 1997/1998 when this is supposed to have been published.  They were only made Ministers, in fact, post that period.  It does not list things like when the Legislature met last year.  It has a whole host of other things, as I say.  It is quite serious that we cannot allow a report like this to actually be circulated anywhere.  It really needs to be withdrawn.

It should be issued anyway in the name of the Speaker, and not in the of the Secretary, and I would urge that you withdraw it.  I am going to be putting forward a motion to this House tomorrow, that the Speaker takes action to ensure that the costs of this in fact be borne by the accounting officer, because it clearly, as far as I am concerned, is expenditure that is wasteful and unnecessary.  So I would urge that this matter be withdrawn, and that it then be looked into by the Speaker himself.  Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I have taken note of what the hon member has said.  This document was tabled today, and I must confess that I have not perused it at all today.  I would request, Mr Speaker, that this is a matter which should be dealt with at the commencement of the proceedings tomorrow in order to enable other parties to study the document in some detail, which I have not done during the course of the day.  I think to do it right now, Mr Speaker, would be somewhat premature.  I would hope that the hon member will agree to that.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I accept that, as long as this does not go out for public consumption until we have had a look to ensure that these matters are dealt with.  But I would support that, that we deal with it first thing in the morning.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I would like to hear from the other parties, what their views are?  Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I concur with the Chief Whip.  I believe we should have an opportunity to study it, and look at this tomorrow, and defer any decision till then.  But this document not be released on the information given to us.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I have had a very brief look at it, and whilst I have serious concerns, I think the opportunity would need to be created to debate it properly, or otherwise, we would have to go via an unopposed motion, and I doubt that that will be achievable.  So yes, certainly I would welcome the opportunity to debate the issue.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  But I hope you agree with the proposal, that it remains the property of the individual members, and not be for consumption beyond that, until it is debated?

MR W U NEL:  That would be appropriate.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Baba Shamaze.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, I have not even opened it.  I therefore agree with the proposal as espoused by the Chief Whip.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That then makes it imperative that each one of us who has received this report holds onto it.  We ensure that by tomorrow we will be able to comment on it.  Thank you.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Speaker, could we be assured that it is not even in the hands of the press, because if it is so, then we will be in trouble.  They will make a big story out of it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, there are issues that are beyond our control at the moment, up to this minute at least.  From about half past ten this morning when the document was tabled it was a public document.  We cannot say anything against the people who have had it since then.  What we are saying now is we must try to minimise the damage that can be done if we continue circulating it.  Thank you very much.

I also want to make one other announcement.  The issue of tea was discussed during the Executive Board this morning.  There was agreement amongst those who were present that when we have these late sittings, it would be better to have some tea.  There have been complaints from the members.  What I am, however, concerned about is that tea has been provided, but the members have not been informed.  I also was not aware that tea and sandwiches had been provided.  I happened to notice that there was tea available.  It is outside as I am talking to you now.  I would like to bring it to the attention of the members that if you still feel like having tea and a sandwich, please do so outside, otherwise it is going to be wasted.

That brings us to the end of today's business.  From the Ministers, can I enquire, are there any announcements from the Premier?

AN HON MINISTER:  No, sir.  No announcements.


THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  We therefore adjourn the House until tomorrow at 2 o'clock.  The House stands adjourned.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:11 UNTIL
	14:00 ON THURSDAY, 28 MAY 1998


		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - TWELFTH SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 28 MAY 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:05 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have no announcements to make.  Oh, I have changed my mind.  Those that do not change their mind have not any mind to change.  I would like to make this announcement, that in the interim, no smoking is allowed in the reading room.  There is a Committee looking into the issue, and will finally demarcate the smoking areas and the non-smoking areas.  I want to suggest that two rooms on the other side, that is the bar and something else, those who have a craving for smoking could certainly go there. But not in the reading room.  I say this because some people smoke and then leave their stubs on the papers, as if somebody does not want to read that paper after they have read it.  That is very, very bad.  That is the interim ruling I am making at present.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  It is a pity that some of the people who are concerned with smoking are not here and are not making any noise.

AN HON MEMBER:  They are having their last smoke in the reading room.

THE SPEAKER:  

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

The hon Premier please.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to second your ruling, because this brings us in line with modern thinking as far as smoking and health is concerned.  Thank you for protecting the health of our members who are unwilling victims to the whims of smokers.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, perhaps today we will be considering one of the most important pieces of legislation that this House has considered so far.  I wish the Minister of Transport well.  This will be a historic Bill, and I hope that we rise to the challenge to provide safety and security for the passengers of the taxi industry.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

THE SPEAKER:  The hon the Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I rise to table the annual report of the Department of Works for 1997.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I have pleasure in tabling the report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport on the KwaZulu-Natal Interim Taxi Bill.  I have pleasure in tabling the report.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon leader of the House.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  Mr Speaker, due to the concerns raised by the hon member Dr Sutcliffe yesterday, I wish to withdraw the Annual Report of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature, and it will be referred to the Parliamentary Board for further discussion before it comes back to this House.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that at the next sitting of this House I shall move the following motion:

		This House welcomes the significant victory of the ANC over the National Party in Ward 7 by-election of Pietermaritzburg yesterday, and notes:

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Order please!

MR Y S BHAMJEE:

		the failed attempt of the National Party and its Provincial Leader, the hon member Danie Schutte who spearheaded his Party's (NPs) campaign to unite the voters against the ANC in a Local Government election.

		Accordingly calls on the National Party to realise that it is no longer a player of importance in the political game.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, the hon Mrs Cronje.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Come to the funeral I am organising for you.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion in this hon House on its next sitting day:

		Noting the welcome improvement in providing tea, coffee and other refreshments to members of this hon House;

		I accordingly call on this House to extend its sincere appreciation to all members of staff concerned.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mrs Mchunu please.

MRS A MCHUNU:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I will table this motion tomorrow, or at the next sitting:

		Noting that sexual activity is going on much more freely today under the guise of freedom of activity especially in relation to our youth.

		Noting that Family Planning Services, termination of pregnancy may help, but does not stop HIV entry.

		Resolves:

		1.	to request the hon Premier to support the "Youth programs of abstinence" and the "True Love Waits Campaign" with incentives such as educational books, bursaries etcetera.

		2.	to have a parliamentary subcommittee that supports these abstinence programmes.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I would like to find out whether there is anybody who would oppose a motion which may not be passed as a motion without opposition.  People can think differently on this motion.  I do not want to put it, and then get it shot down.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  As long as you are not asking members of this House to abstain.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Doctor.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Yes, can I just ask the mover of the motion whether she is going to move to conduct an inspection in loco as far as abstinence and the rest are concerned?

THE SPEAKER:  I do not think this is a subject for discussion. This is a motion which I thought would carry everybody's wishes.  That is why I say it is being moved like an ordinary motion.  I am requesting, with the permission of the House, if I may not put this motion to the House as a health move without opposition.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, as has been practice in the past, that a motion of this kind, that is going to be put to the House to be passed without opposition; at least the Whips and the caucuses should have knowledge of it beforehand.  So if anything, I must proforma oppose it.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Yes, Mr Speaker, we are in the same unfortunate situation, that I think it is a motion that is not totally uncontentious, perhaps in parts, and we would want the opportunity to discuss it as a caucus.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, there was no request that the motion should be put to the House, and I think we should just treat it like a normal motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, it was my idea really, having heard the motion, that there would be no opposition to it.  It is being put like any ordinary motion which need not be discussed.  But apparently, I am not in agreement with the rest of the House.  Therefore it reverts to being an ordinary motion, notice of which has been given, and it will be debated in due course.

Let me take this opportunity to request the owner of vehicle NIX 7437 to remove his vehicle.  It is in the way.  A request is being made that it be removed from where it is.  Any further motion?  Oh, yes, the Doctor.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker. Unfortunately I missed part of the last motion.  It did sound like it is something that would be worth supporting, but unfortunately we did not have the full details.  I just caught the latter part of it.  I have another motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Just before you put your motion, Doctor.  That means two of us think the motion is worth supporting.  I am sure your Chief Whip does not think so, but thinks the matter should be debated.  Therefore we must abide by what she says.  It is a woman's world, you must not forget.  We therefore proceed.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Oh, yes.  Now I have seen the motion, I would support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, that makes you and I, but she does not support the motion.  But nevertheless, that is not the issue.  The Doctor is at liberty to put forward the motion that he has.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to give notice that I will move on the next sitting day as follows:

		1.	The World Health Organisation estimates that there are about 1,1 billion smokers in the world, which is equivalent to about a third of the world population over 15 years.

		2.	In South Africa the prevalence for adults in 1997 stood at 28,4%, (that is 47% of men and 12% of women being smokers).

		3.	Tobacco consumption is decreasing in developed countries and increasing in developing countries.

		4.	The 31 May has been declared the World NO Tobacco Day.

		Further noting that:

		(a)	Tobacco related mortality and morbidity has reached proportions of a global epidemic - with HIV and tobacco being the only major causes of premature deaths; and the death toll from tobacco globally being 3,5 million people;

		(b)	Smoking adolescents tend to continue as adults and have a 50% chance of dying from tobacco related diseases;

		(c)	Half the smokers will die in middle age, losing an average of 22 years of normal life expectancy;

		(d)	Smoking causes a variety of cancers of different parts and organs of the body; cardiovascular, and respiratory diseases as well as pregnancy complications;

		(e)	Non-smokes regularly exposed to environmental tobacco smoke have a 30% risk of developing tobacco related diseases.

		Hereby resolve:

		1.	To observe 31 May 1998 as the World NO Tobacco Day.

		2.	Encourage all smokers to abstain from smoking for that particular day.

		3.	Designate this House, corridors and offices as SMOKE FREE areas and recommend to the Speaker to designate an area where limited smoking can be allowed.

		4.	Join in the campaign to decrease the consumption of tobacco in this Province and in the country as a whole: such as anti-tobacco legislation which amongst others outlaws the advertisement of tobacco, discourage the youth from starting the habit while encouraging smokers to stop smoking.

		5.	Endorse the theme for the World NO Tobacco Day which is "Growing up without Tobacco" to make this world a safer place for our children to grow in.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I will convey to the hon Minister that I support that motion, provided it includes No Dagga Day.

THE SPEAKER:  I did not hear that one.

AN HON MEMBER:  Provided there is no dagga.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Provided that he also includes No Dagga Day.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, the Doctor takes that, I take it.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  No, he does not take dagga.

THE SPEAKER:  The mover of the motion, not you, I am dealing with the doctor and Mr Rajbansi made a remark in response to the motion that was moved by the doctor.  I want to find out whether I should accept the remarks of Mr Rajbansi or not.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  We are dealing with notices of motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Notices of motion.

MR V A VOLKER:  And there is no discussion whatsoever.  The hon Mr Rajbansi is misusing this opportunity.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  No, wait Mr Rajbansi, please.  Let us not get into an argument on this.

MR A RAJBANSI:  He should keep quiet for one week.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  No, you are not entitled to speak.  No.  Let me make this issue clear.  It is in fact wrong to stand up and speak without being granted the opportunity.  In fact, the Chair is allowed to send everyone of you out of the House for disobeying the Chair.  A member is allowed to speak when called upon by the Chair, not when one feels like talking.  That is number one.

Number two, a little while ago it was agreed, in fact in the Executive Board, that motions must only indicate the substance of the motion, and under no circumstances must it exceed 250 words.  I would like the members to observe that.  Nevertheless, there has been no cause for such concern this morning.  There are no further motions.

AN HON MEMBER:  No, there is.

THE SPEAKER:  I am informed that I am being liberal when I say 250 words.  My Deputy Speaker informs me that it was agreed that it should only contain 100 words.  Please make note of that in future when moving motions.  The hon member may move his motion now.

MR S E MCHUNU:  Mr Speaker, I wish to give notice that at the next sitting day I will move this motion as follows:

		Noting:

		the intensification of the double-barrelled, now a national problem indeed viz. evictions on farms and the attendant current problems that go with it and the spate of murders of white farmers;

		Further noting:

		that police in the affected areas are always taken by surprise and overwhelmed by the murders on one hand and are often miserably biased against harassed and victimised African tenants and labourers on the other to which courts are not always very co-operative and helpful,

		This House revolves:

		to promote law, order and justice on farms including co-operation between these communities ensuring each other's safety and welfare and will engage KwaNalu and the Department of Land Affairs in achieving this.

THE SPEAKER:  We continue with the business of the House.  I take the liberty of making further announcements in regard to these motions, even though I have said you caused no problems today, you have caused me to make this announcement.  There has been a number of problems regarding notices of motions in this House.  This has led to unnecessary delays in the proceedings of business of the House which I hope most members will have already noticed.  To alleviate this problem, I therefore, in terms of Rule 3 of the Standing Rules, make the following interim ruling.

1.	A member may not give notice of more than one motion on any given sitting day, and such motion shall be limited to 100 words.  (You heard me talk about those 100 words).

2.	Motions should briefly set out the matter to be debated, and may not include arguments that would normally form part of the debate.

3.	A notice of motion which contains unbecoming expressions, infringes the Rules of the House, or is otherwise irregular may under the Speaker's authority, be corrected by the clerk of the table, if they concern these things.  Any such alteration must be submitted to the Speaker and member who gave the notice before it appears on the Order Paper the following day.

4.	A notice that is wholly out of order, vexatious or frivolous may be ruled by the presiding officer to be out of order, and consequently withheld from publication on the Order Paper.

These are the procedures which are contained in the Rules of the House or any Parliament anyway.  I think what I will do is to circulate this to the members, so that they do not have the same trouble next time.  Thank you.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Speaker, we already have those.  They were circulated yesterday.

THE SPEAKER:  They were circulated?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Yes.

THE SPEAKER:  Oh fine.  Good show.  I am telling you what you already know.  Mr Makhaye, any motion to move?

MR D H MAKHAYE:  NOT ON RECORD

THE SPEAKER:  I saw the hon member standing.  

MR D H MAKHAYE:  The son of Mandlovu has just come in.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Let the hon member take his seat in that event.  

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

The House will resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, in which case I will now leave the chair.  Oh, I am sorry.  My apologies.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  You are giving the Minister of Transport a heart attack.

THE SPEAKER:  Orders of the day.

8.1	KWAZULU-NATAL INTERIM MINIBUS TAXI BILL

THE SPEAKER:  I have a list of speakers here.  That is right.  The first person therefore, who takes the floor, is the hon J S Ndebele, the Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, after a long, arduous, onerous, and torturous route, it gives me pleasure to table the Interim Minibus Taxi Bill, 1998 before this House.

The Bill closes a dangerous lacuna by creating a legislative framework in response to the crisis in the minibus taxi industry.  Its purpose is to formalise, restructure, legalise, and regulate minibus taxi registration and services during the period leading up to the enactment of national and provincial land transport legislation.

The black taxi industry developed as an illegitimate child of the ~Apartheid~ economy.  There were systematic efforts to outlaw, harass and hound out of existence this only entrance into the modern South African economy.  In spite of everything thrown at it, it demonstrated strong resilience and bounced right back.  When attempts to destroy it failed, new attempts to co-opt it as part of the total onslaught against the freedom struggle were mounted.

It was in this context that ~Apartheid~ era policemen and later the askaris camouflaged as taxi operators were introduced into the taxi industry.  Their purpose was to report and apprehend suspected recruits and freedom fighters.  In most cases, this was not to bring those arrested to trial, even under ~Apartheid~ laws but to lead them to summary execution.

To their credit, only a minority of operators succumbed to this total onslaught trap.  But a lawless law culture was nevertheless fostered in the industry.  If one taxi could be used as a Trojan horse to summarily execute freedom fighters, others could easily use the same method to fight and execute their rivals.  If one taxi operator could carry dangerous weapons with a tacit agreement of the ~Apartheid~ security forces to eliminate freedom fighters, others could do the same to deal with their rivals in the industry.

Because no regulations or laws governed the industry, anyone could become a taxi owner or acquire a taxi permit.  It is this carte blanche scenario that led to the general oversupply of minibus taxis and overtrading on routes.  Coupled with the fact that there were very limited opportunities for entry into other sectors of business by black people, what is otherwise a vibrant industry throughout the world, in South Africa it became characterised by chaos and violence.

It is this chaos that this Bill intends to eliminate.  It seeks to introduce law and authority.  Working in our favour is that this law and authority enjoys immense legitimacy.  It is supported by all political parties, by taxi operators, by the commuters and the public at large and by commerce and industry, to which it is an important cog.

Today marks a new beginning for the taxi industry.  A most thoroughgoing process has preceded this legislative framework.  Beginning with a summit of all taxi operators in KwaZulu-Natal in March 1996, the first representative body, the KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Task Team, was formed.

In September 1996, the Taxi Office was established, and the Provincial Taxi Registrar was appointed.  With this structure in place, provisional registration began.  To date, 293 out of a total of 324 associations in the Province have been provisionally registered.  Only 31 associations are now outstanding.  A semblance of order has thus been achieved.

But in the absence of a legislative framework, peace and order is still voluntary and optional.  The very permits themselves remain a major cause of conflict.  For example, a permit will grant someone authorisation to operate in any part of the Republic of South Africa, or in any direction within a city or town.  I will refer the members to the package from chaos to an economic powerhouse.  At the end there you will have examples of permits, and if I can just read one permit.  It says:

		This permit authorises and is restricted to the conveyance as set out in the following description:

		From Alexander Street Taxi Rank in Ladysmith, Magisterial District of Klip River to points within the Magisterial District of Klip River and return to Alexander Street Taxi Rank in Ladysmith.

That is a very wide area which provides a person the opportunity to legally encroach on another persons routes.  Then it also grants him:

		On casual trips from Alexander Street Taxi Rank in Ladysmith, Magisterial District of Klip River to points within the Republic of South Africa and return to Alexander Street Taxi Rank in Ladysmith.

So this person can go to Babatolo, Guguletu and he is still within his legal rights.  This Bill seeks to introduce law and authority.

But legislation to make peace and order possible and compulsory became the most urgent task.  It is this legislation that is before this hon House today.  It brings into play all elements that are necessary for a new beginning.

How is this achieved?

We have carefully designed this legislation in such a way that it creates steps allowing taxi associations and their members adequate time to comply with new standards of operation.  To guide and manage these processes, the legislation establishes the office of the Provincial Taxi Registrar and an Interim Minibus Taxi Tribunal.  The Tribunal will adjudicate all aspects of registration of taxi associations and their members.  It will act as an arbitrator and its decisions will be binding on the parties involved.

We have developed an integrated framework for registration and legitimisation of minibus taxi operators, and the Bill sets out the process in the following way?

*	The Registrar has one month to request outstanding registration information from associations, relating to the number of members, identification of vehicles and route details.  Associations which have not already applied for provisional registration with the office of the Registrar will have an opportunity to do so.  Associations which have previously submitted registration details will be required to submit outstanding information.  Once an application is submitted, all members will be issued with an Interim Operating Authority.  This will mean that 30 days after we pass this Bill, hopefully by 28 June 1998, every minibus taxi in KwaZulu-Natal will bear a sticker with the Interim Operating Authority on its windscreen to indicate that its owner has entered the legal process.  These permits carry a distinct watermark and cannot be forged.  They look like these Interim Operating Authorities, and it is only those taxis that reflect these stickers that will be allowed to operate.

	I will perhaps refer members to this chart.  This chart sets out very clearly the process that is going to be followed.  It starts with an association applying to the Registrar.  The Registrar then requires the name of the association, the office bearers of the association, and the members of the association, and the vehicles that the association members own, and the routes on which they travel.  There is no mistaking that.  That is where the conflict will begin to be resolved.  Some members leave out their membership where there is inter-association, violence or conflict.  They are in conflict with each other.  They leave out some members.  Those members will now have a chance to challenge that.  With membership, you leave out the widow of a husband who has died, and that widow will now have the chance to challenge that, "No, but I am left out.  I am a member of that association".  The Registrar then mediates in that process.  If that fails it goes to the tribunal, whose decision is final.

*	The Registrar will then, over a 15 day period, publish information on registration of associations.  This information will be widely published in the media, will be available for inspection at the taxi office, and will be sent to the associations' headquarters for verification.

*	A 15 day period during which associations, ordinary members of the industry and members of the public can challenge registration claims submitted by associations will follow.  The application to challenge information will be submitted in writing to the Registrar.

*	The Registrar will then have one month to consider and decide any challenges on the registration.

*	The KwaZulu-Natal Interim Minibus Taxi Tribunal will then consider and rule on appeals against the Provincial Taxi Registrar's decisions on challenges to registration.  The Tribunal will have 30 days to rule on appeals when they will either confirm the Registrar's decision or overturn it.

*	Over the following month, the Registrar will make recommendations to the KwaZulu-Natal Local Road Transportation Board.  The question of the Transportation Board.  We suspended them issuing permits as from February last year.  They will be instructed by the Registrar, after the completion of these agreements to issue permits.

*	The Local Road Transportation Board will then have three months to consider the Registrar's referrals and recommendations for the granting of legitimisation permits.

We will monitor the progress of all these stages, and if the need arises, we will adjust the time frames, guided by concrete realities on the ground.  We will also report on the progress of these stages to the Transport Portfolio Committee, as well as Cabinet as a regular practice.

When these stages of the regulatory process have been completed, all taxi associations and their members in the Province will be registered with the office of the Registrar, and licensed by the Local Road Transportation Board.

Mr Speaker, this will mean that for the first time since the emergence of the taxi industry in South Africa, all taxi operators will be legal.  When one considers its history and the elements which have infiltrated and manipulated it now, the notion of a completely legal and professionally run business industry is not something we could have considered possible in our lifetime.  This Bill will ensure that it happens within the next few months.

Also important is the fact that the public will have access to information about associations and members committed to serve them in their areas.

Parallel to this process I have just sketched out, the Interim Minibus Bill, from the date of enactment, provides for the conversion of all taxi permits from radius permits to route based or area defined permits.  Radius permits gives no indication of routes and the existing system, which grants authority to taxi operators to function within a defined radius, has led to violent competition over routes.  Over 90% of violent conflict in the taxi industry in KwaZulu-Natal in recent years has arisen through the encroachment of and competition over routes.  For example, a radius based permit will permit you to move from the City Hall in Durban within a radius of 50 kilometres.  That 50 kilometres stretches towards Pinetown, towards ~Umlazi~, or towards KwaMashu. That permit actually allows you to encroach.  If you can shift your way it then actually allows you to do that.  But now we say you are route-based.

The new process converts all radius permits to route-based permits.  This essentially means that associations and their members will be committed to the routes and areas they will service and commuters can rely on stable and fixed service providers.

But while the Interim Minibus Taxi Bill guides the entire industry into this new era, it also carries substantial clout to deal with taxi associations or their members who remain outside the process or encroach on other's routes.

Parallel to this process will be the establishment of the Law Enforcement Co-Ordinating Committee, comprising of the Departments of Transport, Safety and Security, Justice, Local Government and Intelligence.

In this regard, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, the Minister of Safety and Security, and I have already set up a joint task team comprising members of the Police and Transport Department for urgent intervention in conflict whenever the need arises.  We have also already agreed that the police unit dealing with taxi violence needs to be beefed up, and a workshop between the Departments of Safety and Security, Justice and Transport will be held within the next few weeks.

To ensure that the new regulatory process is successful, the legislation incorporates a phased approach to enforcements and penalties.  Enforcement and penalties will become harsher over time as the regulatory process unfolds.  Operators who chose to remain outside the process could find their businesses seriously incapacitated.

Thirty days after this Bill is passed, every vehicle will have to bear an Interim Operating Authority, which I have shown to the members, on its windscreen.  You cannot say you forgot it at home.  Enforcement authorities will impound, for up to one month, any vehicle found to be operating as a taxi without this permit.  The vehicles will be released from the pound when a valid permit is produced.

We anticipate that the new regulatory standards will be fully implemented within one year.  After this period, any taxi association or any of its members without a route-based or area- defined permit will face severe penalties.  These include the possibility of exclusion from the industry and fines of up to R20 000, in addition to their vehicles being impounded.

This is a tough but necessary stance to root out illegal operators, and to ensure that the taxi industry remains bound by common standards.  Also, under no circumstances, can there be any compromise on public safety by excusing a few people in the industry who choose to break the law.

Mr Speaker, while the principle aim of this Bill is to put in place a regulatory framework to confront the immediate challenges of competition and violence in the taxi industry, the legislation will usher this bustling sector of public transport into a new era of development and economic empowerment.

We have set in place the foundations for enormous growth through human resource development and economic expansion.  The programmes hold enormous potential for all stakeholders in the taxi industry, but will only be accessible to registered associations and their members.

An innovative training programme for taxi leaders, operators and drivers was launched in March this year.  The training schedules for each of these important role-players are carefully designed to impart necessary skills to them so that they lead the process of transforming the under-skilled and disorganised culture that prejudices the industry's image in the public eye.  The training is on how to run your own association, conflict resolution and also on business skills as far as the operators and owners are concerned, and as far as drivers are concerned, they will be trained.  We just assume that the driver's licence is faulty.  We train them, because they are carrying a very, very valuable cargo, on defensive driving, on advanced driving skills etcetera. This is done free of charge to them.

The KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Development Company, the Section 21 company, which will mobilise finances for economic development, will also only be accessible to registered associations.  This also applies for participation in co-operatives and joint venture schemes, as well as the Taxi City projects.  We have already registered four co-operatives in KwaZulu-Natal, and these are the Ogwini in Port Shepstone, Msunduzi here in Pietermaritzburg, Sonke and Thukela co-operatives.  In this package you will find for instance in today's Natal Witness an article, "Taxi City, a boon for shoppers".  A taxi city is being established on the site of the former Simba Chips factory at Mason's Mill.  This information is available in that article.  This is a business that is worth R40 million.  Mr Speaker, it makes us quite proud. Nowhere in South Africa when an American friend or Malaysian friend asked and said, but you have been free for four years, what business in the city is owned by black people.  We have only been able to show a hair salon which is not even owned by them, or a lawyer's office.  But now you can point to a bustling industry of R40 million and say that is what is owned by the black people, and you would be telling the truth.  The next page you also read, "Taxi owners team up with business".  That now shows the Sonke co-op at Esikhawini which is already bustling.

The taxi industry is also on the brink of securing stakes in other transport sectors such as freight companies, the bus industry and in rail services.  This type of intermodal partnerships will be a major vehicle for economic growth for members of the taxi industry who participate in these ventures.  In total, the successful expansion and transformation of the taxi industry is wholly dependant on an orderly regulation.  We pointed out in the budget speech that the taxi industry, the Msunduzi co-op already owns a share of the Toyota outlet at Howick.

Mr Speaker, we are on the threshold of a breakthrough to stabilise the taxi industry in KwaZulu-Natal.  We have carefully and painstakingly engineered a process to abandon the hostile image of the industry and discourage a climate of lawlessness.  I am enthusiastic about this interim legislation, and convinced that it introduces long overdue regulatory mechanisms and institutional structures to guide the minibus taxi industry in its evolution.

I look forward to the support of this House for the Bill so that the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport and its partners in the taxi industry can forge ahead with the process to regulate and stabilise the taxi industry in this Province.

Before concluding, I want to thank the Portfolio Committee for the very hard work that was put into this Bill.  I believe, Mr Speaker, you have not had before you a Bill that has been discussed and debated so much, both by the public and by the Portfolio Committee.  I also want to thank the Premier, Dr Ngubane, for his support.  I want to thank ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, and Baba Nyambose with whom we participated very vigorously from Cabinet in resolving the Durban Station conflict.  Many hours of very dangerous work.  We were accompanied by the members of the Legislature, Mr Dumisani Makhaye and Mr Mthiyane.  I thank them very much for participating in this process of conflict resolution.  Mr Bheki Cele, ~Inkosi~ Mathaba and Mr Bheki Mthembu have also worked very hard on conflict resolution.

Mr Speaker, I present to you and to this House the Interim Minibus Taxi Bill, 1998.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  No 2 on the speakers' list I will ask Mr Motala who has 10 minutes as Chair of the Portfolio Committee, and five minutes as a member of the party.  Mr Motala.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, the Minibus Taxi Bill aims to regulate the Taxi Industry in KwaZulu-Natal.  The Bill arises out of the need to root out the taxi violence.  The Bill provides a practical and enforceable regulatory framework for the legitimisation of the minibus taxi operators.

It provides for the establishment of the office and appointment of a Provincial Registrar, who must be a civil servant, with the primary function of registering minibus taxi associations and members.  The Committee reached an agreement in deciding that the office of the Registrar is of vital importance to the industry.  This appointment is made from within the public service, and it will be done by the Minister who will have to advise Cabinet on the appointment.  However, if the Registrar is to be appointed from outside the public service, the Minister is duty bound to consult with the Premier-in-Cabinet on the appointment.  It was agreed that there would be a deviation from the norm in this one instance owing to the sensitivity surrounding the minibus taxi operations.

The Bill further provides for the establishment and the appointment of a Panel of Assessors to assist and advise the Provincial Taxi Registrar in implementing the Bill and regulations, and the establishment and appointment of the KwaZulu-Natal Interim Minibus Taxi Tribunal, and makes sufficient provision for wide representivity on the Tribunal.  This Tribunal is empowered to hear appeals.

Both the Assessors and the Tribunal are required to disclose financial and conflicts of interest to prevent any form of collusion.

The Minister is given sufficient powers to enable him to do what is necessary to tackle the problem within the taxi industry.  In addition, the Bill provides for the Minister in consultation with the Premier-in-Executive Council to be responsible for formulating and developing the provincial interim minibus taxi policy.  The requirement that the Minister and Premier-in-Executive must consult on this issue was put forward by the Portfolio Committee.  We felt that although the Premier has assigned the function of handling transport matters to the Minister, it is important at this stage to include the Premier-in-Executive Council in the formulation and developing of the policy, because of the sensitivity surrounding the taxi operations and because of the violence within the industry which has a spill-off effect on the entire Province, and more especially other Ministries, ie safety and security.

The legitimisation of the Taxi Associations will give the Department of Transport some control over the industry and the Association will serve as a conduit for discussion with the industry.  The Bill provides for deregistration and suspension of Associations in specific circumstances.

The peremptory requirement of the taxi operators is to apply for the conversion of radius permits to route permits within six months of enactment of this Bill.  Failure to comply with this requirement will result in the commission of an offence.  In our discussions this appeared to be one of the contentious issues, but the Committee was satisfied that the enforcement and the penalties were necessary to curb the violence in the industry.

The Bill establishes the rights and the obligations of minibus taxi users and minibus taxi operators.  Mr Speaker, whilst at the last sitting, the IFP was accused by the ANC of lacking the political will to approve the Bill, we must emphasise that the Constitution is supreme and our actions are governed by it.  We did not want to see this urgent interim Bill be passed only to be challenged in the Constitutional Court for failure to follow procedures requiring public participation.

Mr Speaker, I would like the hon Sutcliffe to look at Section 118(1)(a).  The Constitution reads as follows:

		Provides that a Provincial Legislature must facilitate public involvement, (which we did not do the last time), in the legislative and other processes of the legislature and its committees.

We believe that the constitutional requirement has now been satisfied.

The Transport Portfolio Committee arranged for the publication of the Interim Minibus Taxi Bill, and for public hearings to be held.  Three public hearings were held, one in Durban, one in Ladysmith and one in Empangeni.  The response to these hearings was relatively good.

At the public hearing held in Durban, all members of the public who spoke on the substance of the Bill were in favour of the Bill.  There were members of the public that were unhappy with the consultation process, and the notification concerning the hearing and the Bill.  To these members an invitation was extended to submit written representation on the Bill, and representation requesting the need for an oral submission.  To date no such request for a special hearing has been forthcoming.  Nonetheless, to accommodate those members that were not satisfied with the consultation process, the Department held a summit on the Bill in Durban on 19 May 1998.  Written submissions were handed in at this summit, and the Committee and the Department considered the submissions, and where it was felt that the suggestions must be accommodated the relevant changes were made to the Bill.  The following issues were common to the public hearings held at Ladysmith and Empangeni:

Concern was raised over section 53(3)(b) which provides for non-transferability of the permits except in deceased estates.  Some members of the industry want to be able to sell their permits.  They are of the opinion that people will start killing them to get their permits because it can only be transferred on death.

The Committee recognised that the provision was aimed at placing a moratorium on the transfer of permits so that the Department would be in a position to ascertain who held permits.  The Committee also recognises that the Department in placing a moratorium on the transfers for the duration of the Bill, was protecting innocent people who would have "cupboard", that is, Mr Speaker, non-operative permits transferred to them.  A compromise was reached and section 53(3)(b) was amended to accommodate the above submission.  Section 53(3)(b) now reads:

		Now provides for transfers from deceased estates and for transfers between members of an Association if authorised by the Association, and if the legitimacy of the association is not challenged.

This was a substantially contentious issue and we are happy to have reached this compromise.

Another common submission was that the word licence should replace the word permit.  It was suggested that a permit is temporary, whereas the licence is now permanent.

This issue is obviously quite substantive and would have  reverberating effects if introduced into our piece of legislation.  There are wider implications of changing permits to licences.  This permit is granted in terms of the Road Transportation Act.  Any amendment of that legislation will have to be carried out independently.  It does not make any sense to reclassify permits in this Act, whereas it is granted under the Road Transportation Act, and the terminology remains the same in the Road Transportation Act.  The Road Transportation Act is a National Act, and we have no competence to amend this Act.

Some members of the public have indicated their support for fines, but requested that imprisonment be provided for as it would have a deterrent effect.

The Committee took cognisance of this request as in some instances perpetrators may be indigent or may not have cash at their disposal and imprisonment appears to be an added deterrent, as in some instances perpetrators are quite easily able to pay fines.  However, the Department convinced the Committee that the Bill is an interim measure, and the imposition of an imprisonment alternative would leave the discretion to magistrates who may not consider that a contravention of the relevant sections is serious enough to justify a prison term of one year, which is a conversion of a fine of R20 000 would be equivalent to in terms of the Adjustments of Fines Act.  Accordingly, the Committee resolved to support the provision as it stands.

Some submissions requested for the driver's licences to expire after three years, not after one year as is presently the case.

The Committee applied their minds to this proposal, but had to agree that this issue is not dealt with in the Bill, and it is not desirable to make changes in one piece of legislation that has the effect of amending another piece of legislation.  This matter should be canvassed with the Department of Transport at National and Provincial level for changes to be effected by  amending the relevant Act.

Among the written submissions received, Kwanaloga wanted to be given the opportunity to nominate an assessor.  

Due to monetary constraints, the Committee felt that it was advisable to keep the number of assessors to a minimum.  The Committee believes that a balance has been obtained.  Kwanaloga are welcome to submit nominations for appointment in terms of the category specified in section 14.1(a).

Kwanaloga also wanted to be given an opportunity to nominate a representative to serve on the Tribunal to represent the interests of Local Government.  

The Committee agreed that this was catered for in the Bill as section 14(2) provides for any person to make nominations.

Kwanaloga also recommended that organised Local Government be represented on the Selection Panel that nominates the Tribunal.  
The Committee resolved that the inclusion of Local Government on this panel would necessitate the inclusion of a representative of traditional leaders on the panel.  Another submission attacked the bureaucracy that was created by this Bill.  Taking all this into consideration it was agreed that the current composition of the panel sufficiently caters for wide representation.

There were other technical amendments that were considered, some of which were agreed to and the others rejected.  Mr Speaker, the Committee met on numerous occasions and discussed the Bill, and the Committee resolved to support the Bill as presented.  I also would like to now formally request all my colleagues on both sides of the House to also support the Bill so that it will give us the teeth that we are looking for, and the Minister can then proceed with what he has to do.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Motala.  I hope your plea and your request will be listened to very carefully by all parties.  I now call upon Mr Magubane.  Sir, you have 12 minutes.

MR N E MAGUBANE:  Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak.  It gives me great pleasure to make a small contribution towards this important debate and Bill.

The minibus taxi industry began growing in the early 80s.  It provided in the need for transport in the disadvantaged rural and urban areas.  Since the 80s it has developed into one of the biggest commercial enterprises in the different provinces, and in the country as a whole.  In KwaZulu-Natal it provides transport for hundreds and thousands of people every day.  It provides work for thousands of people, and contributes towards the economy of the Province.  But the growth of this industry has led to problems.  These problems have been caused by lack of legislation.  The main reason for this Bill is to make laws to ensure that the taxi industry continues to grow in a proper environment.  One of the most serious problems in the taxi industry is the large number of unlicensed minibus taxi operators.

The main objective of the KwaZulu-Natal Interim Minibus Taxi Bill is to ensure that all taxi operations are carried out in a proper way.  The Bill creates a method for the registration of taxi operators.  For instance:

1.	One month for taxi associations not yet registered to register.
2.	One month for taxi associations that had applied for registration to supply information.
3.	15 days for the Registrar to publicise information on taxi associations who want to be registered.
4.	15 days for the members of the public and the industry to challenge registrations.
5.	One month for the registrar to decide on the challenges.
6.	One month for the Tribunal to give a decision on challenges.
7.	One month for the registrar to recommend the granting of permits.

Once this process has been finalised, all the taxi operators will be legal.  At the same time when the above process has been completed, the route system will be introduced.  

The route system will compel the taxi operators to stick to their routes.  This will remain their operating point, and no other taxis will have access to those routes.  The main aim of the Bill is to establish who the illegal taxi operators are, and prevent them from operating.  This Bill will also stop the violence in the industry.

On the same note, I have the Government Gazette dated 21 May 1998.  To take an example, in this Government Gazette there is a person who stays at Matatiele.  He has applied for:

(a)	The conveyance of passengers from the taxi rank in the Matatiele Magisterial District of Mount Currie to Wema, Durban, and return to the taxi rank in Matatiele.

(b)	From the taxi rank in Matatiele Magisterial District of Mount Currie to the taxi rank Umtata, and return to the taxi rank in Matatiele.

(c)	From the taxi rank in Matatiele Magisterial District of Mount Currie to the Natalspruit rank in Katlehong, and return to the taxi rank in Matatiele.

(d)	From the taxi rank in Matatiele Magisterial District of Mount Currie to the rank in Kokstad, and return to the taxi rank in Matatiele.

(e)	From the taxi rank in Matatiele Magisterial District of Mount Fletcher in the Eastern Cape, and return to the taxi rank in Matatiele.

(f)	From the taxi rank in Matatiele to Mount Currie to the railway station taxi rank in Pietermaritzburg, and return to the taxi rank in Matatiele.

Hon members of this House ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR N E MAGUBANE:  Beg your pardon?

AN HON MEMBER:  You are disturbed by your own people.

MR N E MAGUBANE:  Okay.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will request the hon member not to listen to members, but to speak through the Chair.  [LAUGHTER]

MR N E MAGUBANE: 

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, everything I have said and what I see here are clear indications that when this person applies in this fashion that I have read and that I now see here, and that appeared in the Government Gazette, it is an incredible danger in the work of the taxis because this person does not know what he wants.  Even if he can be called and placed here now and ask him what he wants, he will not say, he will say he wants oxen that will take him to the areas he wants.  The law will be set aside.  

Therefore, it is important that in matters such as these, this Bill, as we are discussing it, should be able to show a person that when he says he wants a business, he should know what type of business he wants.  

What I see here is that this person does not want anything, because even the Road Transportation Board in Pietermaritzburg as it has arisen here, provides that objectors object to this thing.  Because if it does not happen that way, and he arrives with three, four attorneys such as Madondo, the advocate here [LAUGHTER] and he is granted and this person goes back to the people who are known to have been working at the rank, then there is an eruption, because this person here arrives saying the Road Transportation Board in Pietermaritzburg has granted him all these certificates, 11 of them that are being mentioned here, and he has a right of using them.  There are people from Kathlehong who have been operating for years.

So I am saying that wherever in Mount Fletcher, where he is talking, there are taxi men who are operating there, who hold those old certificates with the radius rule, and it is required that he respects these certificates and knows that they exist.  
Therefore it is important that we consider things like these as we are now discussing the route system.  The route system will be based on that it brings all these things together into one, and a person will know which one he wants when he applies, and the recommendation he will get from his association will be a straight recommendation that will not lead him to his death, because this is a death warrant.  T/E

I call on the members of this House to support this Bill.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I thank the hon member.  I now call upon the hon member Mr M J Mthiyane.  Mr Mthiyane, you have 10 minutes.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Mr Speaker, I can say this is very good.  No more firearms will be provided to the drivers from outside the Province by people like McBride.  There will be no more widows, because there is now a law.  So it is very good.  The Minister will work in a clean room, but I think you must ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M J MTHIYANE: [I think you are supposed to prepare McBride's bail].  

There will be no more widows as a result of the taxi people, because no more firearms will be deployed to the taxi drivers or taxi people.  This is good.  I repeat myself, this is good.

Mr Speaker, it is my pleasure to be able to comment on this Bill.  It is good, no more firearms.  No more deaths.  It is good.  The transformation of the taxi industry is a need of our time.  I therefore salute all those brothers and sisters who were instrumental in driving this process.  I am doubly sure that this was not child's play.  There was a lot of rejection from the industry for an effective and appropriate mechanism.  However, the wisdom based on a need for this transformation finally became the winning recipe.  No more killings, because there will be no more firearms.  It is good.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Mr Speaker, I do not believe that one has to pass the buck, or forget the sensitivity and negativity of the taxi industry.  The violence that has engulfed the taxi industry has created a very bad image of the industry.  The industry is being ruined by hooligans, and by people who are inhuman.  It does not only affect the owners and taxi drivers, even innocent people are being affected.  It is good, Mr Minister, no more firearms to the drivers.  No more widows.  It is good.  [LAUGHTER]

It is high time that the so-called "hitmen" within the taxi association must be brought to book.  There is a great need for them to co-operate with the police and to reveal the names of those people who are brutally murdering innocent people.  It is good, because there will be no more firearms.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Today, Mr Speaker, we speak in terms of widows, widowers, orphans and disabled people who find themselves in the gist of this havoc.  Those are the passengers who are contributing towards the development of this industry.  It is good, no more firearms, no more widows.

I strongly believe that it is the duty of all South Africans to put in every effort to try and stop these senseless killings.  With this Act, I believe that we will be able to stop this violence.  It will also manage to effectively control the taxi industry.  It is good, no more firearms, no more McBrides, no more widows.

Mr Speaker, I will not forget the shooting that occurred at the High Court in Durban.  Really, it is unacceptable because the firearms were carried close to the High Court.  The police actually did a very good thing in apprehending those people, but I will not forget that incident.  That was not good.  I think, Mr Minister, through you Mr Speaker, we will see a new industry.  We will see new operators, because the law will be there.  It is good, because no more firearms, no more widows, no more McBrides.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order! Order!  I now call upon the hon Mr Volker.  Mr Volker, you have nine minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is good that you see me.  [LAUGHTER]  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to compliment the hon the Minister for having come to introduce this Bill.  He has good intentions, and I believe that all members of this House wish him to succeed in the implementation of this Bill, which is to, as he indicated, create order out of chaos.

I must, however, point out, Mr Speaker, that people who believe that this Bill, when it becomes an Act of Parliament, will in fact succeed in rooting out violence and chaos in the taxi industry, have a touch of naivety.  I believe that possibly the vast majority of taxi operators are prepared within reason to abide by the law, but within the taxi industry we also have, call it a taxi mafia, call it taxi bush fighters who do not really accept that this law will control them.

The Minister will probably have realised that whereas they have already introduced and enacted such a law in other provinces, for example, Gauteng and the Western Cape, they have not succeeded in eliminating taxi violence, murders and killings related to taxis.  The law itself cannot create order out of chaos, if it does not address the hearts and minds of people in that they will accept the restrictions of the law.  Unless that is done, this law will be a law on paper, but it will not succeed.  To express it in a different manner, I presume the Minister will know the expression in the Bible which says, "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak".

In this instance I believe it is also a case that the Minister is well intentioned, and we support him in that.  We all want this Bill to succeed.  It is necessary not only to create order out of a chaotic situation, but also to have an acceptance by the operators of a system which will not resort to killing, to murder for the sake of economic benefits.  It is the people and not the system that is wrong.  It is the people within the system that cause the system to fail and not to succeed.  In Gauteng and in the Western Cape there has been a continuation of the taxi violence in spite of the law.  

I believe that the Minister will also, at least for a reasonable period, not succeed in eliminating taxi violence.  We have the situation that as far as the South African Police Services and the South African Defence Force are concerned, there are regulations, laws, and a code of conduct applicable to those people concerned within the Defence Force, and the South African Police Services.  But, in spite of that, when it contains a strong element of people who have been trained in a system of bush violence, you cannot suddenly introduce people who abide by an orderly code of conduct.

You will probably find that because of intimidation and corruption, the co-operation between the Police Service and the mafia operators in the taxi industry, will contribute to the failure of the implementation of this law.  The law itself will be weakened to that extent, because there is an element that has no regard whatsoever for proper law and order as it stands on the law books of the country.

It is for that reason that we support the Minister in his intentions.  We wish him well.  We as participants in law-making, we all want this to succeed.  But the Minister will know, and if he does not know he will learn, that you do not control everything merely by making laws.  It is the hearts and minds of people that will have to be changed.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  I thank you in particular for conserving time.  I now call upon sir ~Inkosi~ Khawula..  [~Inkosi~ has 10 minutes].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

AN HON MEMBER [Where is yours]?

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

AN HON MEMBER: [But sir do you like this Bill?]

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 
TRANSLATION:  Chairperson and your House, Mr Ndebele's Department that you are talking about is a very delicate Department.  This Department, I do not know what happens to people when a person starts driving taxis, because every taxi driver just trades with his life.  

Over there at home, at Mzumbe, I was pleased when I heard the hon member saying that there is something good there.  There is nothing good at Mzumbe.  With ~Inkosi~ of Nhlangwini, we are always mediating between fighting taxi people, fighting over the road, fighting over money.  

Taxi people, they are selfish when it comes to money, because they do not even want buses, they would prefer it if they were the only ones using the road.  I do not know what has come over taxi people, all of them are the same.  There is not a single one who does not want money, and just wants money and they want the road to belong to them only.

Now there is something they are doing in our area on the South Coast.  It is better that the hon member is here, hearing what I am saying.  At month end, or on Friday, or even on Saturday or Sunday, there is no taxi going to Sayidi or places like Umzinto, or wherever, all of them go and collect money in Durban.  People from rural areas stand around in clusters until it becomes pitiful.  Everywhere they leave people behind, even here at Ixopo, throughout the South Coast.  Just at month end.  Even if it is on a Friday, or on Saturday, or Sunday, taxi people wake up at 2.00 and go to Durban to collect people.  

When we wake up to go to town, we see people standing in clusters, until I feel a sense of shame and wonder how we will get to Sayidi or to Umzinto, because of the numbers of people, even the sick, even those whose children are sick, old women who are ill.  They leave all of them and go to Durban.

Now I cannot talk to these people, expressing disapproval, because these people carry things at their hip-side.  They do not want any one talking on behalf of these people.

No, I am an ~Inkosi~, I do not kill, I am a minister, a minister of religion.  [LAUGHTER]  If you can correct that situation for us, sir, you would have done great work that befits real men.  Also, sir, these people over-turn taxis a lot, because they drive at high speed.  They have speed and they get injured.
I do not know if it would be good for you to stop this Siyabakhumbula campaign, because these people come back from the dead onto our roads and cause accidents on the roads.  You are doing something that puzzles us, you are the son of a minister and you are supposed to do the right things.  Your work is commendable and you are diligent, and people like it, but this thing of Siyabakhumbula, people come back from the wilderness to the road to destroy us and they hit us and we too die on the road.  [LAUGHTER]  

We are being killed by these people of yours, sir.  I am saying this because a person from the Hlongwa family died in Durban and was buried here.  According to custom, a person who died a terrible death, such as in a car accident, is not buried near the home.  He should be buried a bit further away.  And now when the person is buried here and there is a campaign to remember all those who died through car accidents, these people come back and cause car accidents.  That is what puzzles us.

Indeed, people appreciate your work, but I am not going to hide it from you.  This Siyabakhumbula affair, I know it is people in rural areas, they do not want it because it raises dead people to come back and fight with us on the road.  I hear this woman saying I killed them.  I have never killed anyone.  If she is a thug, and as a woman kills people, then she killed them.  You can just see she is capable of doing that.  [LAUGHTER]

Now hon sir, I do not have much to say.  I just wanted to mentioned this weakness that is causing people to kill one another.  They kill one another, particularly when someone has been placed as a chairperson.  And they also have another tendency.  They say that the chairperson's taxis do not wait in line.  They go in and take people, or that person is gone, they have killed him.  

They kill all chairpersons, they do not like chairpersons.  If you can teach them that they should not kill people elected as chairpersons, you would have done well if you do that, sir.  They kill them, they just do not want them, they shoot them down, they just kill them, they do not want anything else.

Now Chairperson, that is the issue I was complaining about.  It was good for our people to become taximen and earn money, but they should not try to chase away buses.  I sometimes ask them, saying now they are chasing away buses, yet we use them when we go to conferences.  Are they expecting us to hire these taxis, something so small?  They do not care.  Even that is fine.  You can hire even five of them to fit the number of people who would fit in a bus, as long as you have put people in their taxis, they do not care and they do not want to even see buses.  They are always interrupting them.

I am saying something I am always discussing with ~Inkosi~ of Nhlangwini.  We always call them and warn them against this saying, do not do this thing, you are causing havoc in the country, and do not kill, you are causing confusion in the country, and do not slander buses, you are causing havoc in the country, we warn them.

I will not pay any attention to you, you are too forward.  [LAUGHTER]  Hon sir, I am now grateful, I just wanted to mention these issues.

I also support, sir, this Department of yours, it is very good, indeed, I support it, just as long as these things will cease, your Department is good.  There should be an end to people killing each other.  There should be an end to reviving dead people whose bones are now white, saying they should be returned and remembered, all that should stop.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [We are grateful that ~Inkosi~ was brief, he did not take a long time].
Next on the speakers' list, Mr B Mthembu, and you have 12 minutes.

MR S B MTHEMBU:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, and hon members, for giving me this opportunity to participate in this highly important and historical debate.

This debate gives us a crucial chance in regulating the minibus taxi industry, and to formalise, restructure and legalise the minibus taxi registration.  This, in the interim means to service and provide the required control during the period leading up to the final enactment of the national and provincial land transport legislation.

Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Transport, Mr J S Ndebele, on his undoubted commitment towards liberating all sections of the transport sector.  Mr Minister, Mazala Nkosi, you are a good model for the generation to come.  You deserve a round of applause.  Keep it up.  The nation is watching what you are doing, and the Province is behind you.

I further compliment the Chairperson of the Transport Portfolio Committee, Mr Motala.  Our Chairperson works very hard.  Mr Motala, I compliment you.  You became a simple and undoubted model Chairperson.  You pulled us together even during times of serious division, but with your skills we have learnt a lot from you.  Keep it up.  I thank all the members who worked so hard to assist this Bill to come to light.

Mr Speaker, we regard this industry as the first big business that was started and is still operated by the blacks of this country.  We therefore cannot allow a bad element to destroy this industry.  We want to see the transport industry grow and reach its full potential.  We want to see our taxi industry become acceptable, and eliminate the fears of the commuters.  We want to give the people what they require, because the importance of taxis was to make sure that the people were able to get to work or shops quicker.

This legislation gives the Minister power, and attempts to assist the law-abiding operators from being the victims of those monopolising individuals who only believe in enriching themselves at the expense of others, and who do not respect the lives of the people.

AN HON MEMBER:  No widows.

MR S B MTHEMBU:  We definitely need quite a strong penalty, and strong law enforcement to root out this evil.  All offences and penalties must apply to everybody, even those who have not met with the requirements.  They will be incorporated.  We would like to encourage that the people co-operate and make sure that they make use of this opportunity.  Nobody is exempted from this process, even those who are slow in joining the process are still catered for in section 57(1) up to (4).  It is a good start in protecting the industry.

The good thing about this Bill, Mr Speaker, and hon House, it does not take away anybody's legal right to be a lawful operator.  During the public hearings, some people raised the fear that with the implementation of this Bill some of them will be excluded from the industry forever if they fail to register or do what is required to be done.  That is not true.  This Bill accommodates everyone.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I strongly believe that with the co-operation from all the stakeholders, that is, from taxi associations, commuters, police and business we will take the taxi industry to its proper destination.  On this note, with all hope and confidence, I support the Bill.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

AN HON MEMBER:  No widows.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Mthembu.  I will request the hon member Mr Nel to resume his seat for a minute.  The first thing that I want to comment on is that it is good that all the hon members are really conserving time.  But on a more serious note, the hon members will have noticed that there has been a change in regard to the Sergeant-at-Arms.  I think it is necessary to bring it to your attention, that we have just received the bad news that our Sergeant-at-Arms has lost his father.  So we have released him.  He has gone home now.  We have an acting Sergeant-at-Arms.  I just wanted to ensure that we are all aware of what has happened.  I now call upon the hon Mr Nel to address the House for six minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I am sure I speak on behalf of all the members of the House to express our sincere condolences with our Sergeant-at-Arms, and we wish him strength in this time.

Mr Speaker, this has been an excellent debate so far, a debate that has been conducted with passion, because obviously this is a matter of great importance in our communities.  It went so well that at times you have been referred to as uBaba, and we really got jolly.  But we are debating an issue here that is of miraculous proportions.  The Minister outlined the history of the development, the growth of the mammoth industry, and it is truly an example of the triumph of enterprise and entrepreneurship against all odds.  People with very little money who saw the opportunity and simply lifted themselves against all odds by their own bootstraps.

I remember very well when I was small, there were not many buses, in those days there were Valiants.  That is where the industry started, and look at it now.  It competed, and it survived.

But then unfortunately it became overtraded, because the competition was so great.  It eventually became the monster that it is at the moment in its unregulated form.  There are murders by the hundreds, and perhaps thousands.  Innocent passengers are part of the victims, even policemen, as we witnessed last week the events on the steps of the High Court in Durban.

But, sir, this Bill, we hope, when it is enacted and enforced will bring an end to all of this.  Of course it is going to be difficult.  It is not just simply going to happen overnight, and it will depend on several things: Firstly, it will depend on the political will to enforce it.  We wish the Minister strength to his arm, but also we wish that he will have the utmost co-operation from the Department of Safety and Security, and also from the officials who administer the Road Transportation Act, because without that he also will not succeed.  It will be necessary, after this legitimisation process, to keep an effective register of permits and people who are entitled to operate on routes.

Unfortunately, it is so that we will end up in a situation where many people who have legitimate rights, legitimate permits will in a sense be prejudiced because others who are pirates will be legitimated.  But there was simply no way of avoiding that.  We had to face up to the reality that there were thousands and thousands of people that were operating, that had entered the system and have been running taxis for some time, as members of associations and some of them perhaps not.  We have to recognise that and provide an avenue for them to get into the system.

Sir, what is especially good about the Bill is that it will create a self-regulating environment where associations will be forced to discipline their own members, because if they do not, they run the risk of deregistration and all the consequences that go with it.  It is also of course a very good Bill because it is going to flush out most of the illegal operators and then, as I said, give them an opportunity to become legitimate.  We hope that this will now together with strong enforcement lead to a regulated and disciplined industry that we can all be proud of.

Sir, but there are things that worry us.  The associations have tended to charge exorbitant fees for membership, and that is a sure sign that something is not well in their organisation.  Why else must they charge so much money?  Of course in the illegitimate and the unregulated environment that we have at the moment, they acted as protection, perhaps in some instances protection rackets for their members, and for that reason were able to extort vast amounts of money.

They also, in some instances, protected illegals, and for that reason were able to extort even more money.  We hope that this is going to be brought under control in the new regulated environment.  That associations will truly be non-profit organisations intent on protecting the real interests of their members, and not simply running monopolies, and excluding and forcing out others, especially the individual or smaller associations.  We hope that there will be many associations registered, that we will not end up simply with a few large associations that monopolise routes and area permits.  That would be an inequity perhaps as bad or worse than the one we have.

We wish the Minister well in this regulation process.  We hope that he and his Department, together with other departments will be successful, but of course we do not ignore the fact that it is going to be extremely difficult.  We look forward to seeing the results.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  I will now call upon the next speaker, ~Inkosi~ Mathaba.. [The ~Inkosi~ only has 10 minutes].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA:  Mr Speaker, first and foremost I wish to thank you for this opportunity.  This Bill, Mr Speaker, intends not to abolish the taxi industry, but instead to promote the industry and eradicate the violence within the taxi industry.

The taxi industry was established during the struggle for the right to run black businesses.  When it first began it was illegal.  As the number of taxis grew so did the trading, and overtrading turned into existence.  In order to curtail this overtrading, taxis need to be organised in a certain manner.  There is widespread public anger about the violence surrounding the taxi industry.  I refer to the commuters who are being killed each and every day, because of the power hungry people in the taxi industry.

The Government has promised to reform the taxi industry so as to curb this violence.  One method of doing this is by gaining control of the taxis and enforcing the routes.  Because taxis are mobile, competition for turf involves routes.  Often there is only one route, and therefore territories overlap.  Different taxi groups try to strong arm each other on these routes.  The taxi war over territory erupts without warning.  Hence the adoption of the new Bill to try and organise the taxi industry, while at the same time clamping down on pirate taxis.

The Bill makes provision for a permit system, negotiated with all the provincial taxi associations to eradicate the breaking of rules with regard to routes.  The main object of this Bill is to make special provision for the regulation and control of minibus-type services and not the radius permit.  An estimated 50% of the minibus operations are run illegally, which leads to uncontrolled competition.  This leads to problems, such as violence, as the other members have referred to.  This would mean that legal operators will be protected by the law on the routes they operate.  Once the Bill is passed, the industry can resume its focus on economic empowerment programmes, and the operation of a cost efficient, safe and legal public transport service.


AN HON MEMBER: [Spokesperson of the workers].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: TRANSLATION:  In short, I mean to say, Mr Speaker, that I am going to name Bafana-Bafana Taxi Industry, is really good, because there is nothing the Minister did not consider, starting from the bottom all the way to the top.  I do not know why anyone would say he is complaining.  

In other words, there are channels that have to be followed.  I mean to say to my brothers, I sometimes hear the thugs saying, "It is over, we have been caught".  Therefore I am saying to my brothers in the taxi business, you have been caught.  [LAUGHTER]

Now there is the law and it is now working.  If you can allow me, sir, to use this language, even though it is not a language that befits this House, but they say, you have been caught.  You can no longer play devious games, because the hon Minister has said that there will be stickers that show where you come from and where you are headed.  There is no way you can take chances, because you have to paste the sticker on.  There is no way you can be devious.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I wish to ask directly to the people in the taxi business, that with this law we are attempting to make, this Bill we are working on in this Parliament, we are not saying it would have totally eradicated violence, but it is a way of trying to.  But it is you people who are taxi owners who are supposed to help us eradicate this violence.  Without you I do not think we can succeed.  Therefore we are requesting you to assist us.

In the end, I wish to thank my brothers working in this Department, such as my brother George Mahlalela and his colleagues.  I see him taking the lead in going to areas where people have been injured, where taxi drivers have been shooting at each other.  

Hon Speaker, that is a gentleman.  It is as if his position is lower in status.  Elevate it a bit.  He is able to meet with groups in conflict.  I am not trying to be Mr Mahlalela's union representative, as my colleagues are saying, but hon Minister, you can do it.  I am not trying to be a Sam Shilowa for Mr Mahlalela and his colleagues.  [LAUGHTER]

In short, I am saying, I too except this Mini Taxi Bill, I wish that there would be progress.  Thank you.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much from ~Inkosi~ Mathaba.  I now call upon Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Rajbansi, you have five minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The hon Minister of Transport was quite correct to state in his introduction that this was a long journey, but a journey worth the while as is evidenced by the fact that this Bill be adopted unanimously in the House today.

But, Mr Speaker, let us examine South Africa today without the taxi industry.  Let us also find out why people took the initiative to begin transporting people, and especially workers of this country, illegally.  Examine this against the background of what the Transportation Board did, what was the policy, etcetera, and what the South African Railways did in respect of trying to get the monopoly.  Can you imagine a day in the life of a worker who has to get up in KwaMashu, get to the North of Durban or Ndwedwe, or get to the South of Durban to work.  Even mass transport, buses were not allowed to take direct routes from the place of residence to the place of employment.

Here we must compliment the Government at national and also at provincial level, of entering an arena where even angels fear to tread, to tackle this issue head on.  I think if ever we had two Ministers in this country who entered this chaos and took centre stage, and not in a paternalistic way, but with absolute co-operation, understanding and support of the industry.  Both who came in to serve in a legal way, and even those who operated in an illegal way, to get their support to transform this industry in a spirit of understanding, and co-operation.  Credit goes to our National Minister and our Provincial Minister.

As the Minister indicated in his introductory speech, this is a mighty industry.  It is a turning wheel.  It can turn the wheel of our economy, because to a large extent it transports the ordinary workers of this country, and it transports those who are disadvantaged, and it transports those who the previous Government did not even bother to care for.  There is an important principle in our transport legislation, and that is that you ensure that transport is provided for the comfort of the passengers, not for the comfort of the owners.

We are happy that there has been extensive consultation, in spite of the fact that when some members decided not to support this legislation after the Portfolio Committee had unanimously accepted it.  There was extensive consultation at departmental level and extensive consultation with the consultants.  I was present at the Durban hearing.  I think what was pathetic was the turnout of members from this Legislature at the Durban hearing.  We must mention that.  The hon Chairperson of our Portfolio Committee did indicate that there were no submissions at that stage, and in spite of the fact that there were no submissions, the Department ensured that workshops would be held.  We must compliment the hon Minister also for an extensive training programme and for the workshops.  I attended some of these workshops.

Mr Speaker, I agree that this is one of the mightiest industries.  They are branching out into the other fields of economic activity in our country, and we must compliment them.  This is a partnership between the public and the private sector.  This is not a draconian measure, as the Minister has indicated.  What is contained in the Bill, controls and ensures that rigid measures are going to be phased in.  As I indicated, these controls are subject to an agreement with the taxi industry, and we support this Bill.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I now call upon the hon member, one of the senior citizens of this country, [Mr Shamase you have five minutes, sir].

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute more.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: TRANSLATION:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  As I speak, I wish to say that we support this Bill and we commend Mr Ndebele and his colleagues for creating this law.  Mr Speaker, we, the older people, who have travelled a bit around this country, one day we have to say that we should look back because if people do not know the past, they will not know where they are going.

When I was growing up in our home area, Empangeni, there were only two taxis, one belonged to Mnguni and his wife, Ma Mthembu, the other one belonged to Mthuntutha.  I am no longer sure whether it was his.  Oh yes, the father of Doctor Mtalane.  

I think there is a point of order, Mr Speaker.  But these people worked very hard, because the police were upon their shoulders, checking whether the tyres were in good condition, whether the brakes were all right, they were stopped at every corner and people had to get out of the car.  It was very difficult at that time.

Secondly, these taxis were used by few people, clerks, teachers and nurses.  I am glad that one of the clerks who used to use this taxi, who worked with us, was our peer, Mr Ntombela.  His son is over there in the gallery, he now owns a taxi.  I am sure Ntombela's guiding spirit is happy, because we used to use the taxi with him.

Now what was used very often was the train.  For the train to travel from our area, Empangeni, to Durban, it took almost a day and a half.  I was pleased when I returned after a 30 year absence from home and found that there were now taxis that go to and fro.  I can now travel from home to Durban in an hour-and-a-half or in two hours.  

It means that people worked and removed trains and municipal buses, because those buses did not help black people, and that money did not go to Africans.  Therefore, we support this industry, because firstly, this industry is in the hands of Africans.  Africans, hold onto it and stop fighting each other.

Secondly, the people these industries are assisting are Africans who use the taxis, they cannot afford to buy their own cars.  It takes them quickly to Johannesburg and then they arrive in other areas.

Hon Ndebele, we people of faith are supposed to pray for this industry because it is the one that assists Africans.  I am saying to people in the taxi business, as it has been said, down with greed such as Khethani's dog Dlayedwa that hoards food only for itself.  Let us co-operate and not enrich ourselves.  Also, be careful of those who do tricks, who carry certain people, saying the taxi, for instance, belongs to Mkhwanazi, and yet he is carrying someone else, such as a two-faced person.

Another thing I want to say is to warn people in the taxi business to thoroughly analyze these people who work for them, these guys who wear their caps backwards.

One day when they were trying to run me over with the car, they said to me, "Be careful, the car does not have sides, but you do".  Secondly, when I used to travel from home, coming to Durban, these drivers, they are the reason I ended up in debt buying a car.  They used to drive at high speed and turn on the volume of the radio extremely high, and I would say, "No, guys, you will kill us" and they would respond saying, "Sir, there are two things that you should do, sleep, close your eyes and sleep, buy your own car and stop discussing us".

Therefore I ask people in the taxi business to note such things.  I also say I support this law.  Thank you.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Siyabonga, Shamase.  The next on the speakers' list is Mr Waugh.  Mr Waugh, you have got nine minutes.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, I will also try to save some time.  At the outset, Mr Speaker, grant me a few minutes to boast about the results of yesterday's election in Pietermaritzburg.  The ANC are talking about a significant election result, and we agree with that.  But let us give the chamber the facts.  What are the facts?  The NP slashed the ANC majority from 530 to 71 votes, and by doing so increased our actual support by 56% in spite of the overall percentage poll dropping from 48% to 24%.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J N C WAUGH:  The ANC the other day called for our resignation.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hon Speaker, could I ask the hon member a question?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Will you answer the question, hon member?

MR J N C WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, if there is time left after my speech I will take the question.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Proceed then.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, the ANC the other day called for our resignation, but may I just say, other than the DP, the National Party will continue chopping away at the ANC support, as we did yesterday, and thereby we will be denying them their required two-thirds majority.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order.  Can we have order.  The hon member cannot proceed in this disorder.  Can we have order.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, to come back to the Bill.  We on this side of the House welcome the tabling of this Bill today.  May I also say that in our opinion, the Bill before us, as it is now, is also quite an improvement on the one that we had before us a month ago.  I support the Minister when he says that the Bill has been widely debated by the public, and by the Committee.  At the end of the day, Mr Speaker, the last three public hearings that were held has also been valuable in finalising this Bill.  I am sure that we can now say that everybody has had the opportunity to contribute to this Bill, and to get this Bill on the table today.

I am not going to deal with the contents of the Bill, as many previous speakers have already done so.

We welcome the fact that the Premier-in-Executive Council has been included in this Bill.  Some of the taxi operators were of the opinion that the Minister had too much power.  I am sure that these fears have now been addressed.  Because of the sensitive nature of this industry, it is a good thing that the Premier also plays a role in the appointments, and in the formulation of the taxi policy.

On a few occasions concerns were raised about the fines without the option of a prison sentence.  I understand that as far as transgressions on routes are concerned, heavy fines are levied, and if those fines are not paid vehicles are impounded.  But, Mr Speaker, one issue one we would like to maybe raise is that when we look at clauses 16(7) and (8), it reads as follows:

	(7)	Any person who discloses confidential information in contravention of subsection 6 shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a maximum fine of R20 000.

	(8)	Any assessor who fails to provide the full declaration of financial or other possible conflicts of interest in terms of subsection 1, 2 or 3, shall be guilty of an offence, liable to dismissal and liable to a maximum fine of R10 000.

We asks oneself the question, Mr Speaker, that if an assessor has been dismissed, and he does not pay the fine what then happens?  Would it not have been better to say such a person is dismissed?  Because we asks ourselves what can happen if he is dismissed and the fine is then not paid?  The same also applies to clause 18(3).

Mr Speaker, in closing, I would like to endorse what my colleague Mr Tino Volker said.  After passing this Bill in this House today, we must not think that it is going to be this wonder wand, that when we wake up tomorrow there is going to be no more taxi violence. 

AN HON MEMBER:  Nobody ever said that.

MR J N C WAUGH:  I did not say anybody said that, what I am saying, is with the appointment of people, there is always disenchantment and unhappiness, and that still lies ahead of us, Mr Speaker.

This piece of paper on which this Bill is printed is one thing, but as my colleague had indicated, another very important aspect is the change of heart of the individuals in the taxi industry.  But, Mr Speaker, I am convinced that maybe we have achieved this change of heart in this taxi industry, because of this wide consultation process that this Bill has been subjected to.  I am sure that each and every person who plays a role in this industry will feel part of this Bill, and make it his own, and that within themselves that change of heart will take place.

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House welcome this Bill, and support the Bill.  I thank you.  I am prepared to take the question.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hon Speaker, could the hon member indicate to this House how much money his National Party spent in yesterday's by-election which they lost?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Waugh?

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J N C WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, if I get the opportunity, I would like to respond.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  You have the opportunity now.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Mr Speaker, unfortunately I cannot say at this stage, because obviously all the books have not been balanced ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I hope the hon member will be able to reply within two minutes, which is what is left.

MR J N C WAUGH:  I will thank you, Mr Speaker.  But I would like to say to the hon member soon we will be knocking on his door, and we will get a donation from him.  [LAUGHTER]  Mr Speaker, I would just like to assure the hon member, we spent much less money than they did.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you from the hon member.  I will now proceed to call on the next person on the speakers' list, but before I do that.  It would appear that some of the hon members or members of the public in the galleries have cellular phones, or other electronic gadgets that are in operation with them.  I request that those be switched off please.  All cell phones are to be switched off please, whether you are in the public gallery or in the chamber.  Thank you.  I now call upon Mrs Downs.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  In the absence of Mrs Downs, I will then proceed with the speakers' list and call upon Mrs Gasa.  Your Ladyship, you have 10 minutes.

MRS F X GASA:  Mr Speaker, hon members.  In March this year, when the Bill was not supported by the IFP, the impression was created that we were irresponsible, wrong messages were sent out, and wrong allegations were passed on to the members of the public.  The picture that was painted was that we did not care about the interest of the public.

We have been proved correct, hon members.  The expansive explanation by the Minister of Transport when he tabled this Bill, and the patient way in which he took us through the steps was far different from the tension that there was during March.  The presentations by the different speakers also show that we have gained by requesting the public to participate in this debate.  This has been a sensitive issue, because it has taken lives in this Province, not only in this Province, in the entire Republic.

Mr Speaker, I choose to approach the debate from the position of both a politician and a mother.  Responsible politicians have got to understand that when there is consensus in a debate there is no need to belabour the point.  There are certain things which we cannot afford to politicise, and death is one of those issues.

As the Minister has said, sir, the Committee on Transport, and numerous stakeholders need to be commended for the numerous meetings, and their physical presence on the scene where taxi violence had erupted.

The IFP, after careful consideration, and on analytic approach lends its support to this Bill.  A culture of reckless driving is creating havoc on the roads.  Speaker, I am not intimidated.  The IFP is aware that in 1997, and here are the statistics, there were an estimated 150 000 minibus taxis on the roads in South Africa.  They made up 2% to 3% of all the vehicles on the road, but were involved in 17% of all collisions, according to the Automobile Association.

The Minister is applauded by the IFP.  The IFP hopes that the regulated taxi business will translate into fewer fatalities on the roads.  I would like to issue a warning here.  It becomes unfair that because there are now new regulations we still say "if, if tomorrow there could be".  Let us be very optimistic and know that this piece of legislation is going to be the answer to our concerns.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS F X GASA:  The organogram you gave us, Mazala Nkosi, on the restructuring of the minibus taxi industry, will surely assist to curb the greed, as illustrated by ~Inkosi~ Khawula earlier on.  The profit margins are slim, and as a result the taxi drivers overload the minibuses for additional fares.  They race in and out of towns, Mr Speaker, to pack in that extra trip.  The industry does not seem to take a day off.  I would like the owners of the taxi industry to have a look into that, because the day off will also ensure that there would be time for the drivers to be trained, and there could also be a change of tyres.

Some people think that metered taxis would be the answer.  I am glad that this Bill does not entertain that.  The IFP believes that the Bill makes provision for and will promote a change of mind-set to a culture of road safety which actually obeys speed limits.

TRANSLATION:  In conclusion, Speaker, we must remember that problems facing people in the taxi business are not theirs alone.  We too have to concern ourselves with these problems, because they have a bearing on our lives, they have a bearing on the lives of our children.  

Taxi drivers are our children, they are our sons, they are our husbands.  If they are injured, even if we do not know them, just reading about them in the papers and just seeing them on television getting hurt, it touches us.  Therefore, let this not be something we keep at arm's length and think that only Transport and the Minister of Transport will solve it.

We also are supposed to carefully examine that as we are employed.  Our children, who attend colleges, are assisted by these people in the taxi business, taking them to school and bringing them back.  Therefore as parents, and not as politicians, we have to concern ourselves with the safety of the taxis and uplift the safety standard to a level where we too can leave our cars and depend on taxis.

The campaign that will take place after this, I am asking the whole House, on behalf of the IFP as it leads you, to support this campaign.  We lead you.  Is it now known that the IFP leads the Province of KwaZulu-Natal?  We lead you, therefore you should listen to us.  The campaign that will originate from the Minister and my brother, the hon Motala's Committee, we are supposed to assist it and support it until the end.  T/E

The IFP welcomes, and supports this Bill.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Can we have order please.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hon Speaker, could you just wake up the Chief Whip there please.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, I am glad that the Minister was able to do that for me.  I now call upon Mr Ainslie.  The hon member has 14 minutes.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, for the second time I would like to stand up and support this Bill.  In doing so, I believe that we have been reckless, and we have been irresponsible, and we have played with people's lives by not passing it when we could have in March.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, there were no major changes to the Bill, and no major consultative processes after that date in March.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order.  Order please! Order!

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, when I heard the hon Mr Mthiyane speak, I was not sure if he was speaking about the Bill or speaking bull.  [LAUGHTER]  But yesterday he also indicated, after the Portfolio Committee meeting, that he was very happy about the Bill.  We were concerned whether he would still be happy today, and I am very happy that Mr Mthiyane is still happy today.  [LAUGHTER]  I am also very happy that the hon Mr Mthiyane is in fact here in the House today, and is not participating in a taxi blockade in ~Umlazi~, not marching on police stations to let out criminals.  [LAUGHTER]  We are very, very happy, Mr Speaker.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Speaker, this Bill is an emergency response ...

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There appears to be a point of order.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Can the hon member take a question?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A R AINSLIE:  At the end, if I have time.  Mr Speaker, this Bill is an emergency response to the current crisis in the minibus taxi industry.  Its chief objectives are firstly, to eliminate illegal minibus taxi operations, and secondly, to stamp out violence.  I was wondering when the two National Party hon members spoke, why they were so negative about this Bill.  Its reason suddenly dawned on me.  They lost the election yesterday.  [LAUGHTER]  They are in a very bad mood, and I want to remind the hon Mr Waugh that you either win a war or you lose it, and you lost.  Despite the money they spent and despite the fact their entire leadership was not present in the House yesterday.  I think yesterday we had two members from the National Party in the House.  They were all trying to persuade voters to vote for them in the by-election.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Waugh, perhaps I should also tell him, you are either alive or dead, and they are not alive any more, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, I attended two of the three public hearings, and at both the public hearings, Empangeni and Ladysmith, everybody there had a story to tell about death, and about property being destroyed.  I have been told by members of the Department that since our abortive attempt to pass this Bill in March, at least 38 people have lost their lives in taxi violence.

Mr Speaker, the minibus taxi industry has a courageous history.  We need to restore our pride in that history.  It is one of the few areas of the economy where ordinary disadvantaged people have been able to accumulate capital.  They began doing this long before the current democratic Government came to power.  The hon Mr Nel remembers before those days, before the advent of taxi buses, he remembers Valiants being used.  I remember Pontiac sedans being used in those days, to ferry people backwards and forwards from their workplace to the township.

Despite harsh ~Apartheid~ laws and regulations designed to crush it, the minibus taxi industry has become one of the giants of our economy.  It is an outstanding example of black economic empowerment.  Taxi owners buy over 800 million litres of petrol every year.  They purchase over 3,5 million tyres per annum.  It has created over 300 000 jobs, equal in fact to 60% of the entire gold mining industry.

United, Mr Speaker, the industry has huge economic clout.  There are undreamt of opportunities awaiting it, in the distribution of petrol, and the manufacture and sale of tyres, vehicles and spares, and the Minister, when he addressed us earlier on, spoke about co-operative businesses.  The industry is undoubtedly in desperate trouble.  This Bill is to protect the industry.  It is the product of a partnership between Government and taxi operators.  The objective of this partnership is to restore normality to the minibus taxi industry.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order please.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Part 11 of the Bill is its most important section.  It deals with the conversion of radius permits to route based or area defined permits.  Radius permits is what causes much of the conflict in the taxi industry, and we heard earlier on from members how in fact a radius permit gives you permission to do anything you like, and cover almost any route.  A radius permit allows encroachment on other people's routes.  It is difficult to enforce, especially during disputes over routes.  Route based or area permits will allow for more effective regulation, and the eradication of violence.

Mr Speaker, several issues have been raised in the Portfolio Committee, and also when we discussed the Bill in the House in ~Ulundi~ in March, and also during today's discussions.  One of these concerned the reclassification of permits to licenses.  This question of calling the authority to operate a licence rather than a permit was also raised at the hearings, and Mr Motala, when he spoke, also mentioned this.  The question of the value of a permit, and its transfer, also referred to by Mr Motala earlier on, is an important issue.  An amendment has in fact been made to this Bill to extend the situations in which permits can be transferred by people who have them.

It is important to note that this Bill is an interim measure.  The question of permits, licenses, value, transferability and other issues cannot be dealt with effectively in interim legislation.  They will be dealt with fully in the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Land Transport Act which will supersede this interim measure.

Then, Mr Speaker, several people have once again raised the question of consultation.  I simply wish to repeat what I said when I spoke on this issue in March.  There has been widespread consultation.  In fact, the Department must be congratulated on the extent to which they went, to consult with taxi associations.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A R AINSLIE:  Local Government structures and other stakeholders.  The very fact that the Portfolio Committee unanimously approved this Bill in March is an indication that everybody was satisfied with the consultation process.  The fact that no more hearings were asked for in Ladysmith, Durban and Empangeni is an indication that people were satisfied with the consultation process.  The fact that no written reports, or very few written reports were received after those hearings is a further indication that consultation had taken place.  I attended the Ladysmith and Empangeni hearings, and it was very clear, although these hearings were very, very useful, it was very clear that everybody had already been consulted.  So, Mr Speaker, we wasted time in not proceeding with the Bill in March.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A R AINSLIE:  Now the hon Mr Nel is not here, but he expressed his concern in the Portfolio Committee about the status of individuals who are not members of associations.  It is true that this Bill does not make provision for non-members, it focuses on members of associations.  The question of individual operators who are not members of taxi associations will be dealt with in national legislation, and probably in the Provincial Land Transport Act when that comes before us.

The rights of non-members are not interfered with in this Bill.  They will still be able to apply for permits in terms of the Road Transportation Act.  Of course the Bill encourages individuals to become members of associations, it does that, and there is nothing contradictory in society protecting individual rights, but at the same time encouraging individuals to act collectively.  Mr Nel who is not here, but if he kicks his soccer ball on his own at home all day, and scores goals on his own in his garage, that is his right to do so.  But if he wants to go to France and win the World Cup with Bafana Bafana, he will have to associate with other soccer players, join a club and be elected to the team.  That is what individual taxi operators have to do if they want to become part of these co-operatives, and part of the economic benefits that the Minister has indicated.  They have individual rights, but let them join associations to get these benefits.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, also in the interests of time, I am not going to say much more.  Those are the main points that I wanted to raise, except to say that there have been extensive consultation processes giving rise to this Bill, and that process is confirmed by the fact that there is broad based agreement from the industry, and other stakeholders on the need for this measure.  Mr Speaker, without any further ado, I have pleasure in once again supporting this Bill.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I just bring to the attention of the members ...

MR A R AINSLIE:  Oh, I have got some time.  I will take a question.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I bring to the attention of the members, you have said you are finished, Mr Ainslie, that I have now placed these two yellow cards here.  I am still waiting for the red card, but I think this will be sufficient.  I would like us to complete this debate, and in a dignified manner.  That is why I am placing these yellow cards here.  So could we please be aware of that.  The hon member Mr Mthiyane, indicated that he would like to ask Mr Ainslie a question.  

MR A R AINSLIE:  Yes, he can ask a question.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We give him the chance to ask that question?

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order please.

MR M J MTHIYANE: TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Speaker.  I was asking the hon member, as he says that because the law did not pass after the discussion in March so many people have died, how many people died at Inanda in situations unrelated to taxis?  Why does he not count those?  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Ainslie.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Speaker, I wish to repeat what I said earlier on.  We had the opportunity to pass this Bill in March.  The fact is that 38 people have died during this period, and there was widespread consultation, including with people from Inanda.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A R AINSLIE:  Including Inanda people.  I am in touch with the Inanda Taxi Association.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order! Order! Order!  I will rule that there has been a question, and there has been a reply.  The members can sort out their differences outside this House.  I now wish to call upon the next person on the speakers list, and that is ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe.  Sir, you have 12 minutes.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: [Speaker, I was pleased when you said you are now giving yellow cards].

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [I will really use them now].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 
TRANSLATION:  Speaker, I think it is important to ask this House to maybe rise in respect of the passing away of my brother's father, the Sergeant-at-Arms here.  If that can happen, it would be good to demonstrate that respect, but Mr Speaker can do that when he sees that time permits and there is an opportunity for it.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:.  [I would not know, sir, why we should wait, when ~Inkosi~ has requested an opportunity, let us use it].  May his soul rest in peace.  Amen.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Speaker.  Firstly, it would be good to correct the hon member, Mr Ainslie, in what he was saying.  I wish to say, Speaker, that the Constitution of this country, which is the final Constitution, was made by the ANC.  Therefore, it is the product of the ANC.  

Some of the provisions of this Constitution such as Section 118, says that Parliament must go and consult with the people regarding all legislation taking place.  The IFP will respect that policy because respect says that if a country has a Constitution, that country's Constitution should be respected.

I do not know if the hon member wants us to go against the Constitution of this country.  Secondly, I want to let him know that it was not a waste of time to hold public hearings.  We were trying to conform with the Constitution of this country.  
I wish to say, Speaker, that it is a mistake, the meaning of which I cannot describe, when a person says that for us to stop this Bill in March was a lack of political will.  Firstly, what we were doing was considering people who were not afforded an opportunity to say whatever they wanted to say in this Bill.

Secondly, that became evident, Speaker, in the hearings held in Durban and other places, as well as in the submissions that have been received by the Portfolio Committee, that we saw and read.  There are many of them.  

There is a book where they are recorded.  Whoever wants to see that should ask for the book from the Secretary of the Portfolio Committee, it is there.  That is why we sat down and examined the submissions that were made by the people.  In other words, the IFP takes care of people in the taxi business.  It wants people in the taxi business to have a voice in matters concerning them.  The ANC silences them.  T/E

AN HON MEMBER: [They are the criminals]. 


~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:

TRANSLATION:  I wish to mention, Speaker, that there are many people who are pointing fingers at the hon member Mr Mthiyane, saying that it is Mr Mthiyane who delayed this process or this Bill.  That is not true, but I am pleased that Mr Mthiyane is part of this Committee because the knowledge that he has regarding taxis assisted in making us all support this Bill today, because Mr Mthiyane was taking the needs of the people in the taxi business and bringing them to the Portfolio Committee.  That is why, if I can tell you, Speaker, people in the taxi business have faith in Mr Mthiyane, the hon member, because all that he had was for the people in the taxi business and he spoke on their behalf.  That is why we have members such as Mr Mthiyane, in the IFP, who represent and speak on behalf of the people.

Speaker, I wish to say that if we had not given ourselves this opportunity, we would be seeing a lot happening.  Today we have a Bill that we support and it is being supported by every one we spoke to.  We have the voice of the people in the taxi business.  We support the Minister in what he has done to allow and listen to us.  T/E

HON MEMBERS.  [INTERJECTIONS]!

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: [I heard, protect me, the yellow card must come out.  Take it out, Speaker, it is time now, take it out].  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [I have taken them out, sir.  I hear that there are those who keep on shouting.  I am now telling the hon members that they will be in trouble].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:.... [I just heard, Speaker ...]

HON MEMBERS: [INTERJECTIONS]!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order! Order please! Order please!.  [~Inkosi~ must continue].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  I just heard, Speaker, the hon member Mr Mthembu, commending the Minister.  I too commend, but in Zulu I wish to say that when you are a boy and you have gone out to hunt game, you bring it back for your father.  If there is something good done by a son at home, you do not praise the son, you praise the father.  We praise the Premier of the Province for having Ministers who support him well.  Therefore we commend the IFP.  [LAUGHTER]

Speaker, I return to your Bill.  I wish to say that there are many things which are causes of violence in the taxi industry.  It would be good to look closely at those things.  Speaker, I heard through the grapevine that a lot of fights emanate from the people called long-distance travellers, fighting over pennies.  The important thing, Speaker, when you look at this, you see that the causes are economic.  

Therefore I wish to say that let us not gamble with the economy.  The economy is life as well as death for the people.  Therefore it is gambling with the economy, Speaker, when we talk of disinvestments and sanctions, because all of these are things that cause the situation we are in today.  If we did not have that situation, we would be far ahead by now.  T/E

HON MEMBERS: [INTERJECTIONS]!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order! Order! Order!

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  Our people will not be having this problem of dying, they would be employed.  People in the taxi business would not be in conflict.  Protect me, the yellow card must come out, Speaker.

I think that, Speaker, we should look at that co-operatively, to see how we can develop our economy.  These things that cause the economy to develop such as the Government policy called GEAR, which is supported by all parties, if that policy can work and be accepted and not be stopped by Sam Shilowa and the Communists, I tell you that this economic problem in the country will no longer exist.

Speaker, I also heard through the grapevine that the conflict between people in the taxi business could continue because of the bus situation.  T/E
  
AN HON MEMBERS: [Here is Mthiyane] [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Order! Order! Order! Order from the hon members.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  We are facing a huge problem regarding people in the bus service.  It would be good, Mr Speaker, if we can look closely at this and see how we can solve this problem.  It is not permissible, Mr Speaker, that we do not move ahead to ward off possible conflicts that can take place between people.  I have a belief that if we do not work on the bus/taxi issue, we will have a problem shortly.

To demonstrate that, Mr Speaker, here at Richards Bay, the Greyhound Liner was stopped, which is one of the things we have to look closely at and see what we can do to resolve that problem.  

I also heard, Mr Speaker, through the grapevine, that there is a train travelling from Durban to Mozambique.  I know for sure that even there a problem will ensue and we should again run ahead even there and see how that problem could be resolved.  We should not be overwhelmed by problems without first coming up with solutions.  We are leaders, that is why we have been placed in positions.  Therefore, in other words, I mean to say that we have to be ahead of problems.

Mr Speaker and your House, I think that we have seen many instances now where people died because of the problem we are facing.  Where people die and it is said they died in taxi wars, covering up existing situations by saying that those are taxi situations.  And then a man talks over the radio about a leader who has been injured, saying it is because of taxis, without having done an investigation, without having done anything.  I say that is a danger that I think people in the taxi business should recognise.  Mr Speaker, it is not right that when problems occur that these are attached to people in the taxi business.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [I think that, sir, they also see this danger here].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:

TRANSLATION:  In fact, issue a red card, Mr Speaker.  I think we should not hide behind taxi wars if we are being killed in political situations.  Our people have been dying, being killed by political situations and then they hide behind people in the taxi business.

If you look carefully, Mr Speaker, looking at the many submissions that came through, they show us that the Minister will have a lot of power.  We discussed it thoroughly and we discussed it again and ended up concluding that there should be a way of accepting people who have these complaints.  I am pleased that this was being done by the IFP.  Yes, it is so.

Mr Speaker, I wish to respond here to those people who write callously in papers.  In the paper of the 28th, or of today, a man who calls himself Thembi Somsomi who writes for the Natal Witness, states that the failure to pass this Bill has created problems.  That is hogwash.  People should not say something that is not true and cause useless conflict.  

What this person is saying, Mr Speaker, is not true, it is a way of causing confusion, of confusing people.  The issue of conflict among people in the taxi business, as I have said, emanates from economics, and that is what we should discuss and correct.

I also wish to mention something that was mentioned by the hon member Mr Mthiyane, which occurred here in Durban at the Durban High Court.  It was not because of stopping the Bill, this is an old conflict.  Newspaper people are telling lies, Mr Speaker, they are feeding the country falsehoods.  It is because of these things that I have seen who controls the papers.  You people control them, you control the papers...  T/E

AN HON MEMBER: [Yes we will control it].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: TRANSLATION:  As my son, the hon member Mchunu, says, and we are still going to control them.  They listen to you even when it is unnecessary.  It is a mistake to say that what happened here at the Durban High Court was caused by stopping this law, that is a mistake.  I also wish to warn this Department.  Take out your yellow card.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:.  [INTERJECTIONS]!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [No, it is the red one now.  I am now giving ~Inkosi~ the last minute, because it has already exceeded 12 minutes.  I am just doing it.  May ~Inkosi~ continue for one minute].

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE: 

TRANSLATION:  No, because I am now concluding, Mr Speaker, I wish to let them know that maybe something else that this Department has to look closely at, is the issue of rank managers, because there are rumours that it happens that there are hidden agendas causing conflict.  We have to look at that closely too, with the aim of running ahead of the problem.  It is that last point I wanted to mention.  Thank you, Mr Speaker, I am supporting this Bill.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: 
MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I thank you, Mr Speaker, and I wish to thank all the members who have contributed to this debate vigorously, and very positively.

I do not want to dwell on the past at all, save to say that the Bill was introduced during March, not in defiance of the Constitution, but because the founding fathers of the Constitution had looked into all the aspects, even emergency situations.  We therefore in our wisdom have a Rule here which states that the Speaker may waive certain Rules to enable a Bill to be introduced.  The Speaker did that.  Therefore it was perfectly within the law, and within the Constitution.  I do not want to deal with that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Speaker, will the Minister take a question please?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There is a request, will the Minister take a question?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  No, I will not.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Minister has declined to answer the question.  So the Minister may proceed.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Members have raised some issues which perhaps might not be clearly defined in the Bill.  There is an issue which I think I must address.  An hon member wants to find out what are we going to do with the membership fees, exorbitant membership fees to join associations.  The aspect of membership fees will be addressed in the code of conduct, and the constitution which will be the key requirement for full registration of associations, which will also be considered in terms of contributions to be made by members to the fund of a taxi co-op.  So that aspect is going to be looked at.

I just want to share a story with the members, particularly my friend the hon member Mr Volker.  I want to share the story of a lady, it is irrelevant, or perhaps it is relevant that it was a beautiful lady.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is relevant.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Who went to a fortuneteller and wanted to find out about what was going to happen to her.  The fortuneteller became quite gloomy and said that she has got some very bad news for her, and also some good news.  The bad news was that: "For the next 10 years you are going to experience unhappiness, misery, rejection and disappointment after disappointment".  The lady was very, very perturbed by this, and then asked the fortuneteller what the good news was.  The fortuneteller then told the lady that, "The good news is that you will get used to it".  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Speaker, the Department of Transport will not get used to the absence of roads in the rural areas.  The Department of Transport will not get used to the atrocious driving habits of the South Africans.  The Department of Transport will not get used to the chaos in the taxi industry.  Chaos and oppression only occurs when men and women of goodwill remain silent.

Today we have got commitment from the IFP.  We have got commitment from the ANC.  We have got commitment from the National Party.  We have got commitment from the Democratic Party.  We have got commitment from the Minority Front.  We have got commitment from the PAC, and we have got commitment from the ACDP.  We have got also the commitment from the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Transport, Mr Moosa Motala.  We have got commitment from the KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet, and the Premier.  We have got commitment from the Taxi Task Team who have given their unwavering commitment to eradicate the chaos in the taxi industry.  We have worked very, very hard to take the industry from where it was in 1994 to where it is today.  We have got the commitment of the taxi industry as a whole, but we do also have the commitment of very senior members, certainly of the Minister of Safety and Security, but also of senior members of the South African Police Service and of the SANDF.

We are not naive, we are now in a good position to tackle the very difficult future which we face.  It is going to be very tough, but what this Bill says is that it was not possible before.  Now it is possible, because previously when a person encroached another person's route, he did not have a legal framework from which to operate.  He said, "I have got a permit, why are you bothering with me", and there were all those problems.  This Bill eliminates those excuses, and it allows for the law enforcers to severely deal with those who want to create chaos.

I want to thank the hon members for supporting us.  We have now reached the stage where we have this Bill, where we will now be able to create a vibrant industry.  I also want to thank the legal team that assisted us in this.  Baekey International and Associates.  That is Miss Carol Baekey, Mr Colman Ndungane, Ms Andrea Gabriel and Mr Charles Ndlovu who worked day and night to ensure that all the changes that were necessary were effected.  We also want to thank Stanway Edwards Ngomane and Associates, it is the company who were very ready to assist wherever.  We also want to thank the legal advisor of the Portfolio Committee, Miss Narusha Naidoo, who has been very helpful and assisted us with her professional expertise.

But I also wish to thank members of my Department, led by the Deputy Director-General Miss Jenny Gray, who we are going to miss very much as she is going to pay the price of being capable.  She will be leaving tomorrow until 22 June to assist the National Department.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  I also thank the Chief Director of this specific section of the Department, Mr Thami Manyathi who has been a tower of strength during this process.  But I also join ~Inkosi~ Mathaba in thanking Mr George Mahlalela, the Director, who unfortunately is not here because he is assisting his wife at the maternity ward.  Oh, you are here.  [LAUGHTER]  How can you let your wife deliver alone?  He is supposed to be at the maternity ward assisting his wife who is expecting the baby that we will call Taxi Bill.  [LAUGHTER]  We also wish to thank the acting Provincial Registrar Mr Thulani Kubheka who has been very helpful in mobilising the taxi industry. 

Finally, I would want to thank members of my office who have been working for long hours.  Yesterday we left the office at quarter to one in the morning.

AN HON MEMBER:  I hope there was no overtime.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  And two of my members were celebrating their birthdays.  One had a birthday yesterday, and one is celebrating her birthday today, Miss Ranjeni Munusamy.  We celebrated that by cutting the cake at five to twelve so that it would cover both their birthdays.  [LAUGHTER]  We wish to thank them very much for their support.  With the acceptance of this Bill Mr Speaker, we are now ready to work to bring order to the chaos.  We have no illusions on what it involves.  It is going to be very tough.  We have got the will, the determination and the courage to face any of the hooligans there might be.  We are going to be there, and we will bring order.  We are very thankful that this House supports this Bill.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  That concludes the debate on the KwaZulu-Natal Interim Taxi Bill.  I now have a duty to put the Bill to the House.

KWAZULU-NATAL INTERIM MINIBUS TAXI BILL, 1998 - PASSED

The Bill has been unanimously passed.  I will then proceed to ask the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Interim Minibus Taxi Act, 1998.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Secretary.  This brings us to the end of today's business, unless there are any announcements from the Premier, hon Ministers?

AN HON MINISTER:  There are no announcements, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  With there being no announcements, the debate has been a very lively one, but it also has been a very good debate.  One of the best debates that this House has had for quite a long time.  I now adjourn the sitting.  The House now stands adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, 29 May at 9:00.  The House stands adjourned.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 16:58 UNTIL
	9:00 ON FRIDAY, 29 MAY 1998

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - THIRTEENTH SITTING DAY
	FRIDAY, 29 MAY 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 9:15 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There is none, except the announcement that we made yesterday on the death of the father of our Sergeant-at-Arms.

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  There are none.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The only announcement I wish to make is that the Speaker has had to go and attend to some documents, and therefore he is not available for today's sitting.  All the speakers have to undertake trips and need the necessary documentation for that.  The Speaker has had to go and deal with those matters otherwise he is a South African citizen in all respects.  There is not a shadow of doubt about that.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  I have no announcement, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

Yes, the hon Mr Ngema.

MR M V NGEMA:  Mr Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Portfolio Committee on Social Welfare.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Ngema.  There being no further tabling of reports or papers.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion for debate on the next sitting day:

	1.	noting repeated ANC calls for a merger between the ANC and the IFP;

	2.	noting further that the ANC President, hon Mr Thabo Mbeki, has advocated an African Renaissance to lead Africa into a brighter economic future;

	3.	noting further that the IFP epitomises the African value system of ~Ubuntu~ and is untrammelled by foreign value systems;

		Now therefore:

		The majority party of this House, the IFP, hereby invites all ANC members of this House to join the IFP and thus enjoy the benefits of an African Renaissance that will herald a more prosperous future for all the people of this land.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE:  Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the members that the application forms for the IFP are on the table of the hon ANC Vice-President, hon Mr Zuma, for collection.  I hope that the new members will enjoy being in the family of the IFP.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I just point out that I was very lenient, because it was the ~Inkosi~ speaking.  I was not sure which part was motion and which part was not the motion in what the ~Inkosi~ was saying.

MR R M BURROWS:  Let us put it to the House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, just a further matter.  Mrs Millin is wearing red to make Dr Sutcliffe feel more at home.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, I think Mrs Millin is ensuring that everybody is aware that there is a red card.  [LAUGHTER]  So I think she is living proof of that.  Any further motion?  There being no further motions.  We proceed with the orders of the day.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1	COMMITTEE STAGE : VOTE 13 (SOCIAL WELFARE)

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  At this stage I propose to leave the chair and convert the House into the Committee of Supply.  I will call upon ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe to chair the Committee of Supply.  The House is converted into a Committee of Supply.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE
~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE, THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR.

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1998.

VOTE 13 : DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The business of the Committee of Supply resumes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  I will now call upon the hon Prince G L Zulu to deliver his opening speech.  Thank you.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  Mr Chairman, colleagues, it gives me pleasure to deliver the budget speech of the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development.

1.0  INTRODUCTION

In my introduction, I will briefly touch on the mission of my Department, the goals, the policy objectives and finally, the problems or challenges facing the Department in 1998 especially in view of the financial constraints facing the entire provincial administration.

1.1  MISSION
In terms of its mission the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development is committed, through an empowered staff, to the provision, promotion and development of comprehensive, people-centred, social welfare service to the community, in order to maximise the inherent potential of every individual in KwaZulu-Natal.

1.2  KEY GOALS
The key goals of this Department can be summarised as follows, that is the Department seeks to provide:

*	social welfare services and programmes aimed at care, as well as development;
*	a uniform and integrated institutional framework;
*	social integration in all aspects of welfare delivery;
*	equitable access to the Department's resources and services in both urban and rural areas; and
*	support to the poorest and most vulnerable members of society.

1.3  KEY POLICY OBJECTIVES
The Key Policy Objectives are as follows:

*	Redress inequalities and access to the Departments resources and services with special focus on rural areas;
*	Facilitate provision of appropriate developmental social welfare services, with a shift away from the mere provision of care;
*	Promote and strengthen partnerships between Government, the community, the society and the private sector with respect to the delivery of service.  The challenges for 1998 include the way the Department effectively delivers services in a situation where there is inadequate funding; insufficient management structures and capacity; insufficient financial and personnel administration and where the level of fraudulent activity is relatively high.

Obviously, the success of the Department will depend much on its recognition and commitment to sound financial discipline implementation of the Provincial Performance Enhancement Plan; re-registration of beneficiaries of social security benefits in order to ensure that only legitimate pensioners remain in the pension system, the ongoing investigation into other fraudulent activities, and the ongoing review of the systems in order to close loopholes which make the systems vulnerable to fraud.

1.4  STRATEGY
To achieve this mission the Department endeavours:

Firstly, to provide welfare services in the fields of:

-	Child and family care;
-	Care of the aged;
-	Alcohol and drug dependence;
-	Care of the offender; and 
-	Care the people with disabilities.

Secondly, this Department provides financial assistance in terms of subsidies for institutions administered and services rendered by private welfare organisations, namely homes for the aged, service centres for the aged, homes for people with disabilities, and children's homes.

Thirdly, the Department administers social pensions and grants such as old age pensions, disability grants, war veterans grants and a variety of other grants designed for children.

In addition the Department, in its care of children, youth and families administers and finances residential care facilities such as places of safety, reform schools and schools of industries.  Rehabilitation centres are also provided for substance abusers.

It is for this purpose that the Department of Social Welfare has in its employ 2 116 staff members, employed in three welfare regions of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  The head office based in ~Ulundi~ co-ordinates the services and provides policy direction.

My policy speech will highlight important aspects of the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development.  These will entail the achievements of 1997/1998 financial year and plans for 1998/1999 financial year.

The different components in my Department are:  Social Security, Social Assistance, Social Welfare Services, Social Development, Population Development and General Administration.

2.0  SOCIAL SECURITY

All social security grants are managed and administered in terms of the Social Assistance Act, 1992 (Act No 59 of 1992) which was implemented with effect from 1 March 1996.  This is a National Act which has been assigned to the provinces and which in terms of the new Constitution therefore forms part of the provincial legislation.  The recent amendment to the Social Assistance Act of 1992 has far-reaching implications both for the administration and the pensioners.

From 1 April 1998, the commitment of the State commences from the date of approval of the pensioner application whereas prior to 1 April 1998 the date from which the pensioner would be paid was the date of application/attestation.  The advantage for the State is that it will no longer be responsible for payment of arrear pension payments in excess of three months.  On the other hand, the pensioner applicant could suffer financial prejudice through delays caused by the administration.  The amendment was done recently and it remains to be seen to what extent it affects the position as it was before 1 April 1998.

The Department administers more than 600 000 social grants and therefore has the highest grant population compared with the rest of the provinces.  An amount of R3,750 billion has been put aside for social grants and subsidies to the private welfare organisations.  This forms 94% of the Welfare budget.  This amount also includes 2,2% which is provision for the growth of beneficiaries.  It also includes an amount identified for payment of pension payments deferred in 1997/1998 as a result of projected over-expenditure.

The Department has worked hard on the old backlog and all that remains now is the current backlog, (that is a lot of work coming in on a day to day basis).  As a result of the shortage of staff and the low computer response time, it is now planned to employ temporary staff who will assist in reducing/eliminating the backlog within the current financial year.

Although the implementation of the Social Assistance Act on 1 March 1996 meant that there would be a single pension system throughout the country, the methods of payment have not been finally amalgamated.  The Department is still paying pensioners through its own officials by a cash mechanised system previously used by the Natal Provincial Administration and Community halls, through Post Offices, through the banks and through agent companies.

Pensioners have an option to choose the payment method most convenient to themselves.

Although it is the Department's policy to improve conditions at the pay-points, the implementation of this policy is hampered by lack of adequate funding.  Pay-points with improved conditions exist in the urban set up, but in the rural set up, establishment of properly equipped pay-points progresses slowly, eg pay-points are being constructed at Eshowe (Ndlangubo area), Hlabisa (KwaMsane area) and Nongoma (Mona area).

It will therefore be necessary to involve community participation in this important programme, especially because the structure will also be used for social activities other than payment of pensions on completion.

On the whole, payment at pension pay-points is now done expeditiously - instances where people wait in queues until late are investigated and resolved.

An amount of R210 million has been budgeted for payment of arrear payments.  These include:

	new applications received after December 1996 which were processed but could not be put into payment as a result of insufficient funding.  This category has been put into payment for June 1998.  This involved 11 891 cases and the amount involved is R42 672 160,75.  These have been released first, as these pensioners are not in receipt of any benefit at all, they are not receiving current payments, as some of the other categories of pending payments.

	Lists containing particulars of the 11 891 pensioners have been sent to district offices for their information.

	The arrangement with the pension system, (SOCPEN) is that no person will receive amounts in excess of R5 000 in order to minimise the risk pensioners receiving large amounts are exposed to.  For those cases where the amounts due exceeds R5 000, the payment will be split over two or three months.  The carry over of these 11 891 cases is thus that an amount of R4 812 191,42 will be paid in July 1998 and R33 353,81 will be paid in August 1998.  The total amount to be paid in respect of these cases is therefore R47 517 704,98.

The amounts which are still to be released, and for which printouts from SOCPEN are awaited so that the exact amounts involved may be rectified and approved, include:

1.	the ex-KwaZulu backlogs which were paid in July 1997, but where the arrear amounts were withheld (approximately R46 million) - processed during the last financial year.

2.	the arrear amounts from the systematic re-instatements put into payment in November 1997 (approximately R80 million)

3.	Investigated large amounts have also been released for payment in June 1998 - plus R1 million is involved.

In addition, payment of funeral claims is also receiving attention.  The arrear payments will be effected over a period of four months from June 1998 and an amount of R50 million has been budgeted for each of the four months.

In order to effectively manage the administration of pensions and grants and remove fraud and corruption from the system, the Department has put in place the following mechanisms:

-	Fraud and Corruption Unit comprising of dedicated officials from my Department, the Departments of South African Police Services and Justice (Attorney-General's Office).  As a result of the determination of this Task Team to control fraud and corruption, I am pleased to state that there has been a number of arrests involving both public servants and members of the community.  Some of these cases have been finalised, whilst a lot of them are pending before the criminal courts of the Province.  The Department has attempted to publicise as many of these convictions as possible in order to prevent people from embarking or continuing with corrupt activities.

	This Task Team is presently busy with cross-border criminals on the border between Swaziland and South Africa.  57 arrests had been made by 22 May 1998.  These are non-South Africans who cross the border and fraudulently apply and get pension payments in KwaZulu-Natal.  It is clear therefore that it will continue to be difficult to control and manage the budget for this Department.  I must mention here that the non-South African citizens would not be in a position to go through the process of application for pensions if they were not assisted by our officials.  The officials of my Department, Justice and Home Affairs have been informed of this problem, and we will sort them out too.

-	The Forensic Audit Unit was employed to assist with the investigations through the files and computers.  A lengthy report covering fraud in the pension system and PERSAL systems has been produced.  The actioning of this report is resulting in the arrests of certain officials and members of the community, and a lot of savings for the Department.

-	It is generally estimated that there is between 5% and 10% of illegitimate pensions in our system.  This would be between R150 and R300 million in financial terms.  It has therefore been decided that all pensioners will be re-registered in order to eliminate illegitimate pensioners from the system.  The programme was due to commence on 1 June 1998, but owing to the complicated planning which is being undertaken, it is estimated that the programme will commence at the latest in August 1998.  Again here, uncovered fraud will be prosecuted and savings realised will enable the Department to fulfil its mandates.  One thing I must mention here, is that it becomes very difficult to catch the culprits when they have in their possession two citizenship certificates.  It becomes very difficult for the police, because even if they are told that this is a Lesotho or Swazi citizen, they will quickly produce a South African citizenship.  That makes it very difficult.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):.  [I do not know who gives it to them].

All action taken to eradicate fraud and corruption from the system will not go very far if suitable measures are not taken to close possible loopholes which render the system vulnerable to fraud and corruption.  Legislation is therefore being reviewed on a continuous basis, the systems are being upgraded, the staff are being trained on the proper application of the legislation, and managers are being trained on the effective management of the system.  I have no doubts that the implementation of the internal audit will further strengthen both eradication and preventive measures.

2.1  MAINTENANCE GRANTS / CHILD SUPPORT GRANTS
December 1997 saw the promulgation of the Welfare Laws Amendment Act.

This introduced the new Child Support Grant on 1 April l998, and announced the cessation of the State Maintenance Grant.

The phasing out of the State Maintenance Grants came about as a result of recommendations made by the Lund Committee following their investigations into the entire system of support to families and children in South Africa, undertaken in 1996.  It was found that the maintenance grant reached a comparatively small number of families, and access to this type of assistance was limited.  During February 1998, a total of 33 647 adults and 58 655 children were in receipt of the maintenance grants in this Province.  A significant problem experienced with the maintenance grant system was that this was open to abuse, in that applicants willingly made false statements in their applications, and the grant did not reach the most needy.

The Maintenance grant will be phased out over a period of three years, starting from April 1998, with a 25% reduction in the amount any beneficiary is receiving.  This amount will be decreased by a further 33% in 1999 and 50% of the balance will be taken in the year 2000.  By the year 2001, the grant will cease to exist.  It is acknowledged that the withdrawing of support to which families have become accustomed is a painful process.

One of the principles behind both the phasing out of the maintenance grant, and the introduction of the child support grant is that this should be linked to sustainable developmental initiatives.  The intention is to provide these clients an alternative to being on State support, and to emphasise the need to assume responsibility for themselves.

This link to development is a major change for the concept of social security in this country.  It is also necessary that the social security system be seen as only one of the Government's anti-poverty strategies, and the child support grant as a supplement to income.  Here I must also make an appeal to the members in our office and in the districts, to assist our people who are ignorant, to show them the whole process otherwise the poor people will not benefit.

This grant is not limited to the parents of young children only, but is paid to the primary care-giver of these children.  The second significant change incorporated into the new grant of "household income" being considered when applying the means test.  Thirdly, the new grant is very specifically targeted at rural communities, informal settlements and children under the age of seven in impoverished households.

The child support grant aims to reach three million children from poor households within a five year period.  Qualifying criteria include the need to link the child to primary health care services.  The grant is only paid to South African citizens, not Swazi/Lesotho citizens.  So our civil servants must not start the game again.

2.2  SINGLE CARE GRANTS / CARE DEPENDENCY GRANTS 
The takeover of all Single Care Grants and the conversion thereof to Care Dependency Grants in terms of the Social Assistance Act, No 59 of 1992, is also underway.

When cognisance is taken of the fact that there are approximately 5 500 Single Care Grants in the Province, and that each one has to be fully reviewed on take over, the enormity of the task can be understood.

A further problem faced in this exercise is that, in terms of the Social Assistance Act, Care Dependency Grants are paid only to parents and/or foster parents of severely handicapped children between the ages of 1 to 18 years.

Many people currently receiving the Single Care Grants are not the parents of the children, but grandparents or other care-givers.

These people, in order to receive this benefit, will have to apply for the affected child to be legally placed in their foster care, before making application for a Care Dependency Grant.

This move has significant financial implications for this Department and will have to be very closely monitored.

2.3  FOSTER CARE GRANTS
The foster care grant has not been effected by the introduction of the child support grant.  This grant serves to provide for children in alternate care with families through the children's court and is less costly than institutional care.

2.4  DISABILITY GRANTS
Persons with severe disability which militates against them being gainfully employed are assisted by my Department with disability grants.  In order for persons with disability to qualify for this grant, a thorough medical screening has to be conducted before any such application is considered.  The applicants are reviewed annually to ensure that only persons who are eligible for this grant are awarded the benefit.  Persons who qualify for this grant could be either physically, mentally or visually disabled.

The provision of this grant assists families in meeting their basic needs and in reducing poverty.  The view is held that these persons should be assisted to become independent.

2.5  ATTENDANT CARE ALLOWANCE
This allowance which is at a minimal level is to assist families to enable them to care for the aged or disabled persons who require extensive nursing care within the home environment.  This ensures that home based care is possible and persons are able to remain longer in the community, thus reducing admissions to residential facilities.  The latter is very expensive and often unaffordable alternate care.  The allocation of this grant is therefore a vital form of assistance in the social security system.

2.6  TRAINING
Training on new legislation, criteria, norms, standards and guidelines is an ongoing process.

Decentralisation has necessitated district staff being trained on computers and data capturing functions on a regular basis.

In order to hone customer orientation and improve knowledge of legislation and guidelines, staff transferred from Justice and district counter personnel had intensive training on social security in October 1997.

Heads of district offices are subjected to regular staff development programmes with a view to capacity building and human resource development.

2.7  INTERNAL AUDIT
A policy decision to improve management controls resulted in the establishment of an internal audit team.

The team regularly conducts district office inspections within the parameters of financial and administrative systems.

Besides identifying weaknesses in the aforementioned systems, the team has the potential and capacity to address indiscriminate corruption.

2.8  TOLL FREE SERVICE AND MOBILE HELP DESKS
A team of trained officials man a toll free service (0800 322 442)

An average of 4 206 calls per month have been received with a significantly high resolution rate.

The mobile help desks provide a valuable service to clients and needs to be extended to all pay-out points, particularly at privatised pay out points, funds permitting.

2.9  DISASTER RELIEF
In addition to providing limited social relief, that is material assistance to people in dire circumstances, this Department is also called upon to assist in times of natural and other disasters.

3.0  SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

My Department provides financing to non-governmental organisations and facilities to provide welfare services on an agency basis.  The nature of essential services in relation to social work services at welfare organisations, children's homes, creches, protective workshops, homes for the aged and disabled, service centres for the aged, treatment centres for substance abusers.

During the last financial year reprioritisation of services was undertaken with a view to meeting the provincial and national priorities.  The shift in emphasis from residential care and care of the aged is evident in the increased allocation for child and family care.

This programme is vital to address essential welfare needs of the community.  Many of the services are preventive and statutory in nature and served to protect the most vulnerable and disadvantaged groups in the community, eg abused and neglected children, disabled, aged, HIV/AIDS, etcetera, etcetera.

The financial criteria emphasise financing of services for sub-economic communities.  The principle of a one stop service is being implemented in the rural under-resourced areas with the co-operation of the provincial representatives of the national councils of Child Welfare and the Aged.  It must be emphasised that the amount that the State contributes to these welfare organisations is supposed to be a maximum of 75% of their approved expenditure as per financial criteria laid down nationally and provincially.  Since 1993 in most instances, this Department has been unable to increase the majority of the average unit costs resulting in the State generally only financing about 50% of the costs.

The non-governmental organisations, especially child and family care agencies are actively involved in poverty alleviation programmes with and without the assistance of the Department in the informal settlements, peri-urban and rural areas.  The voluntary involvement of communities at a local level by the private welfare sector ensures that they are better placed than Government services.

This enables them to be more sustainable and cost effective.  Should such services be replaced by the State, it will be at a phenomenal cost which would be unaffordable.  For example, currently children's homes are financed at a maximum rate of R823 per month per child, whilst it costs the State over R2 500 per month to maintain a child at a place of safety.

The Department participated in the development of a new draft financing policy for financing developmental social services.  This is expected to transform the financing of services and make them accessible to previously under-resourced communities with increased consumer participation in the management of the services.

4.0  SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES

This vote covers our direct Social Work Service delivery at District level, Regional level and State facilities and institutions such as Places of Safety, Reform Schools and Rehabilitation Centres.

At the Service Office level, the Department is working increasingly at integrating Social Welfare Services in order to facilitate a developmental approach whilst optimally utilising existing resources.

4.1  CHILD AND FAMILY CARE

4.1.1  THE INTER-MINISTERIAL COMMITTEE ON CHILDREN AND YOUTH AT RISK

The Department has co-operated fully with the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Children and Youth at Risk, and participated on an ongoing basis on the transformation of the child and youth care system.  The emphasis is to ensure that children remain in the community or those already placed in alternate care do not become enmeshed in the system with little or no reconstruction and rehabilitation.

4.1.2  PROJECT GO

Project Go is a National and Provincial initiative to unblock and improve the residential care system and mechanisms have been put in place to undertake this programme.  The Project prevents children entering into the system, without screening and assessment, prevents children moving deeper into the system, ensuring the most appropriate, least restrictive and most empowering option of care.  The philosophy of the entire programme is the transformation of the Child and Youth Care system with the emphasis on keeping the child within the family and the community.

Two workshops were held in March with a view to the training of Social Workers in developmental assessment.  Six Social Workers from the Province were sent to Cape Town in March to train as trainers.  They are currently running workshops in the Province.  In total, 19 such workshops have been held to date.  All these training programmes were funded by the National Department.

4.1.3  RECEPTION, ASSESSMENT AND REFERRAL CENTRE : DURBAN

The Durban Reception, Assessment and Referral Project set out to achieve a very basic, but fundamental aim, namely to provide an assessment of each and every child arrested in the Durban Magisterial District within 12 hours after arrest.  Related to this was finding parents or guardians and related services that will facilitate the criminal justice process and serve the interests of the child.

The following key findings are reported on:

*	Poor co-operation from the SAPS in Durban presented the project with extreme challenges, and this was taken up with relevant role-players.
*	Initially the centre did not appear to have any effect as the number of children being held awaiting trial in prison more than doubled.
*	Despite the co-operation received from other role-players, it was still possible that cases could bypass the centre.
*	Between 179 and 273 cases were seen at the centre every month.
*	The greater majority of children seen were charged with property offences.
*	Whilst the project aimed to divert 50% of cases assessed, recommendations for diversion were made in 20,24% and accepted in 72% of those recommended.
*	Positive and negative withdrawal of cases presented interesting information, it took an average of 48 days for a case to be withdrawn and the longest was 329 days.
*	The Department has serious concerns about the increasing numbers detained on the South Coast.
*	The problems are being investigated inter-sectorally.  This project needs to be replicated at other courts in the Province where the numbers warrant such a service.
*	Currently 77 children are being detained at the prison and police cells in the lower South Coast, whilst Westville Prison has over 300 children.

4.1.4  SECURE CARE

No legislation exists for the establishment of Secure Care.  Excelsior Place of Safety has, however, been identified and structurally altered for youth awaiting trial.  It was re-opened on 6 May 1998.  It is ideally suited to accommodate 70 youth.  It is evidence from the figures from the Westville Prison Youth Centre alone that this limited capacity will be insufficient without maximum success of Project Go, and without the co-operation of the SAPS and the full co-operation of the judiciary.  There is a need to replicate this project in the other Regions, if funds are available.

4.1.5  PLACES OF SAFETY

The closure of the Bayhead Place of Safety, and the transformation of Excelsior Place of Safety for Secure Care has impacted on services in our Province.  In terms of reprioritisation the Ngwelezane Reform School in the ~Ulundi~ Region has been transformed to a Place of Safety which would facilitate family reunification services.  This was done in terms of Proclamation No 2 of 1998.

The Places of Safety have also been transformed to accommodate children awaiting trial which is in line with the current youth policy offering a less restrictive environment to certain children.  Currently the capacity at Places of Safety is 549 and the occupancy is 463.

4.1.6  SCHOOL OF INDUSTRY

Whilst there are three Schools of Industry in the Province, my Department is responsible for the after-school care, residential care, life skills and social work intervention at Newcastle in conjunction with the Department of Education.  Reconstruction services are also provided to ensure effective reintegration into the community.  This long standing arrangement has to be formalised as a matter of urgency in keeping with national policy directives in respect of Welfare and Education.


4.1.7  REFORM SCHOOL : VUMA (SITUATED IN ESHOWE) 

The Inter-Ministerial Committee on Children and Youth at Risk (IMC) is currently in the process of transforming this facility to meet the needs of youth in terms of new paradigm shifts in Child and Youth Care.  Renovations and upgrading of the premises have received attention.  Programmes are in place to empower staff to meet these new challenges.  Appropriate strategies and programmes are receiving the attention of the provincial co-ordinator and the IMC.


4.2  CHILD PROTECTION SERVICES

4.2.1  CHILD ABUSE

With the implementation of the Child Care Amendment Act of 1996, and the regulations thereof, a number of programmes have been initiated to address the exceedingly high incidence of child abuse.

A protocol for the management of child abuse was developed.  In this regard three regional workshops in partnership with the private welfare sector, other State departments and the business sector were held resulting in the appointment of a provincial co-ordinator.  This very essential programme was made possible by financing from the Fuchs Foundation.

4.2.2  NATIONAL PLAN OF ACTION

A new development in this area is the appointment of a welfare official for the co-ordination of this function in the Province.  The National Plan of Action is an inter-sectoral and integrated programme directed at children in difficult circumstances.  In this regard provision has to be made to meet the needs of children with special needs such as, abandoned babies, HIV/AIDS children, mental and physical disability, street children.

The Department is playing a leading role with other stakeholders in planning an international conference on Child Abuse in the year 2000 in this Province.

4.2.3  ABANDONED BABIES

My Department has been requested to take full responsibility for abandoned babies currently in hospitals.  This process is being managed with assistance of the Child and Family Welfare Societies.  Available information indicates that there are about 40 children in hospital who are already in receipt of Social Welfare intervention and will be appropriately processed through the child care system.

Special attention has to be given to babies and children in advanced stages of the AIDS virus and the multiple disabled in collaboration with the Department of Health.



4.2.4  SUBSTANCE ABUSE AMONG CHILDREN

The increase in the abuse of alcohol and drugs by children and youth is reaching alarming proportions.  There are no in-patient treatment facilities for these children which results in them being inappropriately placed at certain child care institutions and frequent breakdowns in such placements.

My Department is currently exploring the establishment of such a service in collaboration with the private welfare sector at one of the existing facilities.

4.2.5  AMENDMENTS TO SECTION 29 OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURES ACT

Pending clarification of the legal status of the above amendment, the Department of Welfare is responsible for all children in trouble with the law presently detained in prisons and police cells.  The Department is engaged in reprioritising and redirecting its resources to provide social work services to ensure appropriate services.

4.3  CARE OF THE AGED

The Department provides residential care for 100 aged persons at the KwaBadala Home for the Aged.  If you do not know, this place is situated in Nkandla.  This facility situated in the ~Ulundi~ Region caters for the aged from a vast area.  Social Workers at our service offices are involved in the screening process to determine eligibility in terms of the revised criteria for admissions to this facility, as well as those provided by non-governmental organisations.


4.4  CARE FOR THE DISABLED

There are two facilities administered by the Department which cater for disabled persons:  Enduduzweni for the Blind in ~Umlazi~, and the Osizweni Centre in Madadeni.  An average of 160 persons are accommodated at these premises.  Employment opportunities and training are provided at the workshops.  In terms of the Department's initiated programmes and in keeping with Provincial Policy, discussions have been initiated with a view to privatising the services.

The Department is also facilitating an integrated Provincial Policy framework for the disabled with relevant stakeholders on behalf of the Office of the Premier.

4.5  CARE OF THE OFFENDER

4.5.1  RESTORATIVE JUSTICE  :  PROBATION SERVICES

My Department has initiated Probation Services by deploying 15 posts from existing resources.  They are based at approximately 10 courts to undertake pre-sentence investigations.  In keeping with the transformation of the juvenile justice system the focus is on effective processing of juveniles through the justice system.

Apart from the Probation Services rendered to these juveniles, my departmental social workers based at the service offices in the Province are required to undertake similar services at the specific requests of various courts.

4.5.2  COMMUNITY SAFETY CENTRES

My Department is currently involved inter-sectorally in the National Crime Prevention Strategy.  As part of this policy, the SAPS has initiated national projects to develop Community Safety Centres, which will provide a multi-disciplinary service.  Three centres, viz Umbumbulu, Okhahlamba and Impendle have been identified in this Province.  My Department is involved in the planning process and will be required to provide the staff to render the necessary social work services on a 24 hour basis.

4.5.3  VICTIM EMPOWERMENT PROGRAMMES

The Victim Empowerment Programme is led by the Department of Welfare in collaboration with Justice, SAPS, Correctional Services, Education and Health, in partnership with the private welfare sector.

The Province has been allocated an amount of R250 000 by the National Department to initiative pilot projects which focus specifically on volunteer and informal support.  Provision has also been made for the appointment of a Provincial co-ordinator.

4.5.4  VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

The increase in violence against women is impacting on our services.  Inter-sectoral programmes are in process to address the victims of violence and rape.

4.6  DRUG DEPENDENT CARE

My Department provides residential treatment programmes in Durban and Madadeni in terms of the Prevention and Treatment of the Drug Dependents Act of 1992.  These centres have a bed capacity of 200.

In terms of legislation, social workers at the service offices are required to provide preventive, and therapeutic services, court investigations and after care services.

The high incidence of substance abuse among the youth in particular has necessitated social workers to initiate preventative and treatment programmes at the community level such as the Drug Wise Marshals, Tada groups etcetera, etcetera.  The street children that have fallen victim to this problem have also been targeted by my staff.  This has been necessitated by the inability to cope and manage the service adequately.

My Department participated actively in facilitating public hearings and providing inputs for the development of a national strategy and policy on the control and management of chemical dependency and drug trafficking.  (National Drug Master Plan).

My Department organised a major awareness campaign in collaboration with the National Department at various schools throughout the Province from 18 to 23 May 1998.

4.7  AIDS/HIV

The impact of HIV/AIDS is being felt by the entire community and social work services have to be re-aligned to meet the tragedies and outcomes of this disease.  A provincial workshop was held on 7 November 1997 for discussion and inputs to a workplace policy on HIV/AIDS for the Department of Welfare.  A further provincial workshop was held on 26 February 1998 in collaboration with NACOSA and various stakeholders with the view to developing a Provincial Welfare Strategy to co-ordinate services and develop best practice models by maximising community initiatives.  A great deal of community interest was generated at the workshop.  A further workshop is being planned to coincide with World Aids Day on 1 December with the focus on community based programmes.

The AIDS orphans, child headed families, abandoned children have to be treated within the home.  Where no support systems are available the Department has to resort to placement in cluster foster homes or Children's homes.  The latter face a tremendous burden with the Department being unable to meet the cost of the additional medical and nursing care.

The escalating incidence is alarming, leading to a concomitant demand on welfare services.  Members of staff have attended training programmes on AIDS counselling so that they may be better equipped to meet the needs of this increasing problem.  It is evident that innovative and creative strategies will have to be devised inter-sectorally in the Province in order to ensure effective management.

My Department also contributed to the development of a National Welfare Policy on AIDS by participating at workshops and providing written submissions.

5.0  SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT

5.1  DEVELOPMENT SOCIAL WELFARE

The programme social development was introduced in the budget objective structure in March 1998 and presently forms part of the "printers proof" for the 1998/1999 financial year.

The White Paper on Social Welfare emphasises developmental social work which primarily relates to capacity building and the development of individuals, groups and communities with a view to enhance and promote their optimal functioning.  It is also concerned with the process of empowerment through resource development and skills training.

5.2  POVERTY ALLEVIATION PROGRAMME

The poverty alleviation programmes and the flagship projects which are targeted at rural women and children are all part of the social development programmes.  Funds for these projects are available from the National Department of Welfare and administered and monitored by Provincial Administration.

As the Provincial Welfare budget was unable to meet this need, my Department was successful in accessing R4,4 million from the National Department of Welfare in respect of poverty alleviation programmes.

The programmes identified developmental in nature, helping to encourage self-reliance and grass-roots initiative.  They include skills development and training, economic empowerment, capacity building, education and transformation.  Projects cover a range of activities such as bakeries, hairdressing, catering etcetera, etcetera.

The target groups are the poorest of the poor with major emphasis on women with young children, children infected with HIV, rural and poor communities and vulnerable groups such as the aged, disabled and youth.  Some of the rural areas targeted are Ingwavuma, Nqutu, Nseleni, KwaNgwanase, Mahlabathini, Mtunzini, Hlobane.

Although this funding is limited and committed to projects that will become self-sufficient and sustainable, it is seen as initiating, exploring and developing new projects and programmes.  My Department is currently monitoring the projects of Organisations, to whom funds have been allocated.

This ensures accountability that funds are effectively and efficiently utilised in ensuring maximum community benefit with minimum bureaucracy.  A request for additional funds for this Province will be made by my Department upon announcement of the criteria for applications for the allocation for 1998/1999 year.

With the introduction of the Child Support Grants, these programmes will play a key role in targeting the recipients of the State maintenance grants who are being phased out of the system.  For the beneficiaries of the Child Support Grants will also be included to promote self-sufficiency and self-reliance and reduce dependency on the State social security system.

Social workers in the State and the private sector play a key role in compiling data on available development programmes involving all stakeholders in order to ensure that beneficiaries participate in existing programmes with a view to breaking a cycle of poverty and dependency on the State.

5.3  COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT WORKSHOP

On 25th and 26th March 1998, the Department arranged a Provincial workshop to focus on the role of the welfare sector in community development.  All stakeholders, including State departments and non-governmental organisations involved with community development at different levels participated in the workshop.  A theoretical framework was debated and developed and presentation on best practice models in informal and rural settings was discussed.  The workshop was well received and attended by significant practitioners from the deep rural as well as peri-urban areas.  The workshop was made possible through funding from the National Welfare Department.

The delegates agreed that a further workshop be held to observe World Poverty Day in August at which other best practice models will be reviewed with the view to developing indigenous material and practice guidelines for the development of sustainable programmes with optimal community and voluntary participation.

5.4  FLAGSHIP PROGRAMMES

The National Department of Welfare has facilitated the initiation of two pilot projects targeting rural women and children under five.  These projects are based at Ingwavuma and Azalea in the Midlands region.  My Department is involved in these programmes on an inter-sectoral basis in partnership with the private sector.

6.0  DIVISION : POPULATION DEVELOPMENT

6.1  PRESENT POSITION

The White Paper on population policy for South Africa was finalised in March this year, and approved by the National Assembly on 23 April 1998.

The main thrust of the policy is that of improving the quality of life of the individual, rather than achieving mere demographic goals.  It enhances the ideals of the Reconstruction and Development Programme (RDP) and that of the community of nations as expressed in a plan of action born out of the International Conference on Population and Development (ICPD).

This policy provides a shift from the past.  Past population policies aimed at curtailing fertility through provision of contraceptives often through coercive means and also restricted the population movement and settlement of Africans limiting their access to education and employment opportunities.

6.2  POLICY STRATEGIES

The Population Policy outlines 24 strategies that will be employed to address population concerns.  Areas covered include:

-	Advocacy and population information, education and communication;
-	Poverty reduction;
-	Co-ordination and capacity building for integrating population and development planning;
-	Health, mortality and fertility;
-	Gender, Women, Youth and Children;
-	Employment;
-	Education;
-	Data collection and research.

6.3  POPULATION UNIT STRUCTURE

In order for the Population Unit to function effectively a structure for the population unit personnel has been drawn up.  Ideally the whole structure is a directorate with three sub-directorates.

Due to financial constraints, the structure will kick off as a sub-directorate and the full complement will be realised according to the improvement of our financial position.

The sub-directorate will deal with the three main functions, viz:

-	Population Policy Research and Planning
-	Population Policy Implementation support
-	Population Policy Monitoring, Interpretation and Evaluation

This structure is in line with the requirements of the new population policy.  The implementation of the policy requires a multi-sectoral approach and co-operation to succeed.

During 1997 the Population Unit staff was reduced by more than 60% due to transfers and the acceptance of voluntary severance packages.  Consequently, six local offices have been closed, which has resulted in a huge financial saving.  In spite of this, the remaining staff members have been highly active.  They are presently involved in a number of capacity building programmes and are participating in various social development projects.

It must be reiterated that this policy is not on controlling the population growth rate, but rather on looking at socio-economic variables that impact on population growth and the need to provide for those socio-economic needs.

The policy also calls on all policy-makers to take population factors into account when developing their policies and programmes.  The Welfare Department regards such functions as very important in creating sustainable social development.

7.0  GENERAL ADMINISTRATION

The Head Office of my Department has, as its primary responsibility, policy determination, strategy formulation and overall co-ordination and functioning of the regions.  The current three regions of ~Ulundi~, Pietermaritzburg and Durban are being developed towards maximum autonomous functioning.

7.1  PERSONNEL

The total staff complement as at December 1997 was 2 541 persons.  ~Ulundi~ region 796.  Head office 98.  Pietermaritzburg region 436, and Durban region 1 211 persons.  2 116 posts had been filled as at the end of December 1997.

Appointments in the Durban region were 43, and in the Pietermaritzburg region they were 29.  Two important appointments were made during this period, which included the appointment of Mrs Grace Mbanjwa, as a director and head of the ~Ulundi~ region.

Further, the Chief Directorate at Head Office, Dr L P Mqadi, assumed duty on 1 January 1998, thus bringing great relief to my beleaguered management team.  This leaves one Chief Director (Durban), two Directors (Head Office), three Deputy Directors (Head Office and regions), and one Assistant Director.  These are key positions and they are in the process of being filled.

Closely linked to these appointments were 700 promotions for Durban, and eight for Pietermaritzburg region which were mainly as a result of rank promotions and implementation of the new grading system.

During the same period, the Department experienced a loss of 141 staff from Durban, 43 from Pietermaritzburg and 60 from ~Ulundi~ region, mainly through retirement, voluntary severance packages and resignations.

The staff turnover explained above does not in any way mean that the Department has completed its goal in as far as staff needs are concerned.

The retirement of Dr N L Becker as regional head of the Durban region on 31 March 1998, has deprived the staff complement of one of the most experienced members.

The Department's affirmative action programme is progressing well.  The current status in respect of management posts, that is ranks from Assistant Director upwards is as follows:

	Black					10
	White					 9
	Indian					 9
	Vacant					21

Five of the 21 vacant posts have since been filled, and the rest are being filled.

7.2  TRAINING

In its commitment to service excellence, a programme of staff development through appropriate training is being pursued.

Officials are, wherever possible, encouraged to improve their educational needs in order to empower them for service performance excellence.  These officials receive financial assistance for full-time and part-time studies at tertiary institutions.

The staff development needs are assessed on an annual basis, and nominated staff are sent for training by the Administration's Training Component.

Discussions were recently held with the World Bank Welfare Mission on possible training assistance.  It appears that the Bank will be prepared to assist with the training of officials on the management level and with the supply of computer equipment in order to assist with the strengthening of financial management.

7.3  TRANSPORT

The decentralisation by the Department of Transport functions to user departments is welcomed.  This will allow for greater control and autonomy over vehicle administration and maintenance, resulting in improved utilisation.

The Department has budgeted R500 000 for transport as a result of shortage of funding.  As the staff, especially social workers, need to visit communities to assist with welfare programmes, this will to a great extent, be hampered by the non-availability of transport.  I think we must buy horses.

7.4  INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY

At provincial and regional levels Information Technology Committees have been established.  This has improved acquisition of IT equipment and processing of related matters.

-	Addressing of operational problems is enhanced.
-	Implementation of policy decisions and control mechanisms have proven more effective.

7.5  ACCOMMODATION / AGENCY FUNCTIONS

Agency functions previously performed by other departments, (like Justice), on behalf of my Department have all now been transferred to my Department.  These transfers go with staff posts and related funds.

In a number of areas in the Province, citizens had to travel long distances to get to the service office.  The policy is now to have at least one multi-purpose office in each district and, depending on the size of the district, sub-offices are also to be established.
In terms of this policy, offices have been established at the following places:

~ULUNDI~ REGION - Melmoth, Babanango, Glencoe, Utrecht, Dannhauser, Paulpietersburg

In the Louwsburg District, negotiations are currently underway in regard to a suitable site for the office.  In the meantime, the area is serviced on a bi-weekly basis by the Vryheid district office.

PIETERMARITZBURG REGION.  Offices established at New Hanover, Weenen, Estcourt.  New offices are planned for Underberg, Bergville, Ixopo and Camperdown.

The amalgamation of certain offices, such as Pietermaritzburg, Ladysmith etcetera, to enhance efficiency, counteract service segregation and maximise scarce resources, is in process.

DURBAN REGION.  Excellent progress towards accommodating all departmental staff under one roof has been made with the new premises at BP Centre accommodating social services staff and administration staff from Malgate Building and Escoval House respectively.  Park Rynie has been closed down and the staff are now accommodated at Umzinto District Office.  The Rood Street office has been closed down with the staff relocated to Location Road in Stanger.  Office accommodation is being hired to service the Port Shepstone area.

7.6  COMMUNICATION

To enhance the insight of the community at large, with regard to the activities of Social Welfare, the Department participated in the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Road Shows.

~ULUNDI~ REGION

In the ~Ulundi~ region we participated in the "Government goes to the people Campaign" as follows:

17 May 1997	-	Premier's visit to Ingwavuma, Amagugu Sports Ground
26 July 1997	-	Premier's visit to Pongola

And in the Provincial Road Shows as follows:

 7 -  8 August 1997	-	Vryheid Agricultural Show
 9 - 10 September 1997	-	McKenzie Hall Dundee
17 - 18 September 1997	-	Ladysmith Town Hall
29 - 30 September 1997	-	Newcastle Town Hall



PIETERMARITZBURG REGION

In the Pietermaritzburg region we participated in the "Government goes to the people Campaign" as follows:

July 1997		-	Royal Agricultural Show, Pietermaritzburg
5 November 1997	-	Visit to Bergville

8.0  BUDGET

Mr Chairman, I now proceed to discuss my Department's Budget briefly.

8.1  BUDGET 1998/1999 : OVERVIEW

An amount of R3 985 614 000 to cover running expenditure plus a statutory amount of R386 000 has been allocated for Social Welfare Services, which is included in the printed estimates under vote 13.

The estimates are presented according to the seven main programmes as follows:


	PROGRAMME
	AMOUNT  R
1
Administration
   15 839 000
2
Social Security
3 777 704 000
3
Social Assistance
  106 405 000
4
Social Welfare Services
   82 626 000
5
Social Development
    1 365 000
6
Population Development
    1 175 000
7
Auxiliary and Associated Services
      500 000

         TOTAL
3 985 614 000

In comparison with the amount voted for the 1997/1998 financial year, this represents an increase of R631 957 000 or 18,84%.

Further details of the budget in terms of the various programmes and items of expenditure are as follows:

PROGRAMME 1	:	ADMINISTRATION (R15 839 000)

Provision is made under this programme for the Ministry and management which includes expenditure on financial, provisioning and personnel management, as well as for the provision of other support functions relating to labour relations, organisation and work study, communication, language and legal services.

The allocation has increased by R428 000 mainly as a result of the carry through costs of salary improvements in respect of personnel expenditure that came into effect on 1 July 1997.

In accordance with the cost cutting measures, approximately 25 vacant posts will not be filled and expenditure under other items of expenditure such as administrative, stores and equipment have been reduced accordingly.

PROGRAMME 2	:	SOCIAL SECURITY (R3 777 704 000)

This programme provides for the payment of pensions and grants to various categories of beneficiaries, including parents, children, aged and disabled persons, as well as the provision of social relief and funds for the administration costs of administering the social security programme.  The allocation has increased by R630 971 000 which is reflected as follows:

PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE (INCREASE R1 162 000)

The increase is due to the carry through costs of the salary improvement which came into effect on 1 July 1997 and 1 August 1997.

TRANSFER PAYMENTS (INCREASE R611 537 000)

The increase provides for the carry through costs of increases granted to pensioners and grantees on 1 July 1997, a 2,2% growth in the number of beneficiaries and an increase of 4,3% and 2,1% in the amounts payable to pensioners and grantees effective from 1 July 1998 and 1 October 1998 respectively.

The child support grant has been introduced for the first time in the 1998/1999 financial year, and is to be phased in over a period of five years.  An amount of R50 112 000 is included for the 1998/1999 financial year.

OTHER EXPENDITURE (INCREASE R18 272 000)

The efficient administration of the Social Security Grant payment function is largely dependent upon appropriate equipment, particularly computer equipment, photocopiers and office furniture, and in addition, extensive transport costs, telecommunications and subsistence, the purchase of stationery and payment of agency fees have resulted in increased allocations under the other standard items of expenditure.

In line with the Department's commitment to focus its energies on poverty alleviation in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, and in the light of the announcement made by the National Welfare Minister on the increase of pension rates, I am pleased to announce a 4,3% increase in social security grants.  This increase will come into effect from 1 July 1998.

The adjustments will be as follows:

Old Age, disability and care dependency
grants will increase from 			-	R470 to R490

War Veterans' grants will increase from	-	R488 to R508

Foster Care grants will increase from	-	R340 to R350

Grants-in-Aid will increase from		-	R 80 to R 90

I am pleased to announce further, that as from 1 October 1998, various grants will increase by a further 2,1%, making a total increase of 6,4% in the current financial year (1998/1999).

The adjustments will finally be as follows:

Old Age, disability and care dependency
grants will increase from 			-	R490 to R500

War Veterans' grants will increase from	-	R508 to R518

Foster Care Grants will increase from	-	R350 to R360

Grants-in-Aid will remain at 		-	R 90

PROGRAMME 3	:	SOCIAL ASSISTANCE (R106 405 000)

Under the programme provision is made for the financing/ subsidisation of social welfare programmes.  Provision is also made for the administration costs of the programme.  The allocation reflects a decrease of R4 665 000 due to the following reasons:

1.	Change in policy regarding financing of homes for the aged.
2.	Financial screening for eligibility to services limited to sub-economic persons.

PROGRAMME 4	:	SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES (R82 626 000)

This programme provides for the management and maintenance of 15 State Institutions that provide care to children, families, the aged, disabled, drug and alcohol dependants and offenders.  In addition provision is made for the administration costs of social work services.

The increase of R6 124 000 is entirely due to the carry through costs of the salary improvements which came into effect on 1 July 1997.

PROGRAMME 5	:	SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT (R1 365 000)

This is a new programme within the Social Welfare vote introduced for the promotion of Social Development.  It previously performed a part of the "Administrative Support" sub-programme of Programme 4 : Social Welfare Services.

The financial constraints do not enable the full implementation of the new objectives and are expected to be phased in as and when funds become available.  When, I do not know.

PROGRAMME 6	:	POPULATION DEVELOPMENT (R1 175 000)

The Population Unit within the Department of Social Welfare has been restructured in accordance with national policy, resulting in a new staff establishment, the implementation of which is expected to cost R2 512 000 in the 1998/1999 financial year, compared to R1 657 000 in the 1997/1998 financial year.  The shortage of funds does not permit the implementation of the restructured population unit and it is expected to be phased in as and when funds become available.  An amount of R1 175 000 has been included in the budget.

PROGRAMME 7	:	AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES (R500 000)

Provision is made under the programme for the purchase of new vehicles for the administration of Social Security, performing social work services and rendering general management and administrative auxiliary services.  An amount of R1 million was provided in the 1997/1998 financial year, and the allocation in 1998/1999 being reduced to R500 000.  This provision will cater for only the very urgent needs for the delivery of the social security and social work functions.

8.2  MANAGEMENT PLAN

In view of the shortfalls reflected in certain aspects of the budget for 1998/1999, I will briefly indicate how the Department plans to manage the budget.

8.2.1  PENSIONS

Professional and Special Services

Although available funds are higher than the original voted amount for 1997/1998, they are lower than the actual expenditure for the same year.

Expenditure covers mainly the agency fees to a private company for the payment of social security benefits on behalf of the Department.

It is expected that the shortfall will be covered out of savings that would be generated by the elimination of fraudulent and other illegitimate payments from the system, and also the arrest of non-South African citizens.

Transfer Payments

Funds included here provide for pensions and grants to all existing beneficiaries, new beneficiaries, (2,2%), as well as for an increase in benefits effective from 1 July 1998 and 1 October 1998, that is 6,4%.

The budget will not, however, be sufficient to meet the total expenditure in the financial year.

It is assumed that the current expenditure includes 5% to 10% fraudulent and illegitimate payments which must be eliminated from the system.  I want to assure you we will catch the culprits.

Re-registration

My Department administers grants in respect of approximately 600 000 pensioners in KwaZulu-Natal.

In the course of our, now well-known, fraud investigations it has become clear that a number of recipients are in fact illegal, and we shall deal with them effectively.

A conservative estimate of the number of such recipients is 7%.

On the March 1998 pay-out this would amount to R19 182 410 potential savings.

In order to address this issue, and ensure that all pensioners on this Department's database are entitled to receive the money, this Department will review and re-register each and every beneficiary.  It is painful to say that this will hurt our people, but isiZulu sithi; [a thorn is extracted by using another thorn].

In addition to weeding out those people who should not receive grants, it is believed that this exercise will contribute positively to the Department's administration, in that every pensioner will have a completed file, updated with all the relevant documentation as stipulated in the Social Assistance Act, No 59 of 1992, and all pensioners have a South African identity card with the 13 digit identity number.

This will ensure that no one person can collect two grants, for example, one on the identity number, and one on the old nine digit reference book number.  This has been happening.

In summary, the proposed process is as follows:

SCREENING:  Ensuring that each beneficiary has the required documents.  It is at this point that beneficiaries who are not in possession of a 13 digit identity book will be required to apply for one through the Department of Home Affairs.

OPEN FILE:  A new, complete and updated file will be opened for every beneficiary.  This will ensure that no shortcuts are taken in the process, with staff only reviewing those people who do not have files, or whose files are incomplete.  It is proposed that every beneficiary, although already existing on the database, be treated as a new applicant, and confirmation of every legislated requirement be obtained.

APPLICATION COMPLETED:  Only when the beneficiary has all the required documentation will an application form be completed, in accordance with the requirements of the Social Assistance Act, No 59 of 1992.

FINGERPRINTING:  A complete set of fingerprints will be taken manually, in accordance with the requirements as set down by the Department of Home Affairs, while, at the same time, a complete set of prints will be biometrically registered with the contractor.

ATTESTING:  The application will then be attested, in accordance with statutory requirements.

A detailed breakdown of the proposed process will shortly be available from my Department should anyone require it.  Some resistance to this process is anticipated.

We have, however, only two choices, to knowingly continue with a database which is riddled with corruption and which is dramatically skewing our already overstrained budget, or to opt for a process which will finally provide us with a known baseline to work from, in the clear and certain knowledge that we have done everything humanly possible to eradicate the life-sucking leeches from our systems.

It must be emphasised that the success of this entire process depends on an extensive, open and ongoing communication strategy, as well as explicit and vocal political support.

I therefore appeal to all my colleagues to expend every effort to assist in making this a success story for our Province, as our total budgetary management can only glean credit from this exercise.

It is anticipated that the re-registration process will commence on 1 August 1998, whilst our highly effective Government Fraud and Corruption Task Unit allied to the Forensic Auditors are, as you are all aware, reaping excellent rewards on their hard work.  These initiatives are expected to generate the savings needed to manage the expenditure under this item, as well as under professional and special services.

8.2.2  FINANCIAL CONTROLS

Personnel Expenditure

The available funds are lower than the actual expenditure for 1997/1998 and provide only for filled posts and a few vacant, but critical posts already in the process of being filled since November 1997.

It has been decided to hold in abeyance the grant of merit awards, notch adjustments as a result of profile assessments, overtime pay and rank promotions, etcetera.

Administrative Expenditure, Stores and Equipment

Greater administrative and financial control will be exercised, particularly in respect of items of expenditure, such as telecommunications, subsistence, transport and bursaries.

In respect of essential computer equipment, it has been decided that no equipment will be bought until the second half of the financial year.

Subsidies

While the available funds will be sufficient to meet the expenditure at current levels of capacity and meet statutory obligations at private welfare institutions, they are not sufficient to meet the needs emanating from the implementation of the new initiatives in the White Paper on Social Welfare.

It has, however, been possible to accommodate the objective: Shelters for Street Children.

Land and Buildings

Budgetary restrictions have made it impossible to provide for continuation expenditure amounting to R16,2 million in respect of the five welfare projects presently underway.  It is envisaged that the invoices of the contractors will be paid from savings, and suitable arrangements will be made with the Department of Works.

8.2.3  GOOD GOVERNANCE

Good governance is all about service excellence.

This Province's White Paper on performance measurement is focused on serving the actual needs of our communities, a first of its kind, both nationally and internationally.

Gone are the days where we simply kept on doing a job without somewhere along the line evaluating its efficiency, as well as the efficiency of those implementing it.

I take full cognisance of the fact that there are serious gaps in manpower, in skills and in ability, and you know what the cause of this is.

I fully realise that our staff do not have the necessary skills and ability in respect of policy, procedures, and control measures, but this is precisely where the Good Governance Programme enters the picture.

My Department service should, by its very nature, be in complete harmony with the principles pertaining to this programme.  

It therefore gives me great pleasure that, allied to all the structural and systems improvements my Department has and is implementing, it has also now embarked on the series of workshops that comprise the Good Governance Programme.

I look forward with great anticipation to hearing the positive feedback ensuing from this effort once its impact starts to be felt in the community.

I further anticipate the positive impact this will have on our total ethical and moral capacity.

Mr Chairman, hon members, I now move that the amount of R3 985 614 000 be approved for the Department of Social Welfare.  (Statutory amount of R386 million excluded from the amount to be voted).  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Minister.  I now wish to call upon the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, Mr Ngema, to address the House for 15 minutes.

MR M V NGEMA:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I wish to thank the Minister, Prince G L Zulu, for seeking outside support in the light of the underfunding that the hon members have repeatedly referred to in this House.  I am not going to be reiterating the cry that we have all heard, although it is very relevant.

I wish to, first of all, focus on the salient points that I think we as the Legislature, need to support our Minister on.  Our Minister has indicated that we are facing a challenge, in that light we are required to deliver effective services in the face of budget cuts.  The Minister has referred to the shortage of staff which inhibits our attempts to efficiency, and he wishes to empower our staff in every manner possible.

The Minister has also referred to the challenge to improve the pay-points, in particular in the rural areas.  When it comes to the new child support grant, the Minister has indicated that he would be embarking on a public education campaign, and we wish to assure the Minister that we as the Portfolio Committee representing this House would support him in those endeavours.

We wish to record our appreciation to the Minister, that he has given us with his assurance that each pensioner will have a complete and updated file.  We believe this will go a long way to ensuring that we will deliver efficiently and cut out the problems that our communities have been experiencing.

I wish to stress the point that the new stipulation states that social pensioners will from now qualify for their pensions from the date of approval.  There is also the three months cut off date when it comes to the payment of arrears.  We will do our best as Parliament, to ensure that the Minister has all the support we can afford, as this daunting task calls for us to be very efficient, or otherwise our pension recipients are going to be subjected to a raw deal.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  May I interrupt you, hon member.  I just wish to remind the public, that the use of cell phones is strictly prohibited in this House.  Can everybody please switch off his or her cell phone.  You may proceed.

MR M V NGEMA:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I am saying, the National Minister has pleaded with provinces to do everything in their power to support her in her efforts to secure a fair share of the national budget, as the shortcomings in the allocation of the national budget of Social Welfare does have a negative impact on what we as provinces can do.

I wish, Mr Chairperson, to deal with the cases of fraud and corruption to which the Minister referred.  The Minister did indicate to us that a firm of forensic auditors has assisted us in tracing 122 ghost pensioners.  I want to stress that it is imperative that we track down all criminal activities within our Department and other departments, and that disciplinary procedures are carried out.  We applaud the Minister for the successful cases that he has fought and won.  We cannot have our innocent pensioners, and others who look up to this House and this Ministry for their survival, to suffer at the expense of fraudsters.  The incidents of fraud also culminate in delays in the allocation or payment of grants and pensions.

The Minister and the Department have to be careful because once the amount due to a pensioner starts accumulating, the Minister has to be careful as to whether he needs to pay out the amount, not knowing whether the amount has accumulated correctly, or if the amount is paid out it will be enriching fraudsters.

With regard to child support, I want to indicate that we have received 6 200 applications.  We have organised, as the Minister referred to, an amount of R50 million to meet this challenge.  With the current budgetary cuts, the money will not be easily accessible.  Mr Chairperson, hon members, we have to end the past inequalities.  Our children are suffering from malnutrition.  In South Africa alone, 87% of all African children under 12 are nutritionally undernourished.  We need to embark on poverty alleviation programmes and developmental programmes as the Minister indicated.  I believe that this is where programmes like Xoshindlala, which was launched by the Minister of Agriculture, becomes relevant.

On the topic of children, we also have millions of street children.  Our Department believes that these children need to be successfully reintegrated into society so that they can live as full citizens.  For too long, Mr Chairperson, hon members, have we seen our children begging for bread, sleeping on the streets and sniffing glue.  We need places of safety and rehabilitation centres to enable these children to live like other normal children.  We need to get businesses, communities and the public involved so that we can do something to change the lives of these children.

We also have problems of HIV among our children.  I am deeply concerned about the increasing numbers of children contracting HIV.  We need to focus on public health care programmes.  The Minister did refer to an inter-sectoral programme which is looking into this problem.  We need that to be strengthened, and our campaign intensified.  This will emphasise our rehabilitative and developmental responsibility towards them.

The next problem with regard to children is that of the juvenile offenders.  The status quo of juvenile offenders has remained, in that they still remain in our prisons.  We need to reform the juvenile system as the Government, particularly the National Government, has stated that this is its main objective.  There is a need to remove our young people from the criminal justice processes and simultaneously reintegrate them into their families and communities.

I have found that there is too much duplication in terms of storing information.  One method, Mr Chairperson, we could embark upon in reducing these expenses in order to try and extract more funds for our programmes, is to introduce a system such as a provincial repository.  I referred to that in my debate during the Premier's vote.  We could store all types of information, from various departments, such as Welfare, Education, Home Affairs, and they could easily access such information.  If we had this asset we would not have had to embark on the re-registration campaign.  Data in this repository would help with the re-registration process if we were to embark on such a process again.  Such a system would avoid a further re-registration process in future.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR M V NGEMA:  Mr Chairperson, one of the problems that still raises its head in the Department is that of senior management posts.  In 1997 many management positions were not filled.  This caused bottlenecks in decision-making, and has paralysed or greatly affected our system.  Often the Deputy Director-General is too busy and has no support staff.  I think we do need to take care of this, and beef this up if we are to manage the task before us.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank my colleagues in the Portfolio Committee for their support.  I would like to report, as members may have gleaned from our report, that the Welfare Laws Amendment Bill was eventually adopted by the NCOP.  The Bill was based on our contribution from KwaZulu-Natal, and we secured the support from all other provinces in this respect.  My colleagues will focus on other aspects of our budget as placed before us by the hon Minister.

I thank the Minister and his staff, Mr Mhlongo, for their efforts during the past year, and also my colleagues in the Portfolio Committee for their support.  I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Ngema.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Miss Nahara, to address the House for 12 minutes.

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  Thank you, Chairperson.  According to my information, this week has been dedicated to child protection, and in terms of UNICEF or United National Charter on Children's Rights, this week is also dedicated to the wellbeing of children.

Fortunately, Chairperson, the Constitution of South Africa, made by the people of South Africa, for the people of South Africa, has section 28 that deals with children's rights.  I would like to quote just three clauses in the Constitution that to me are the fundamental rights of the child.

	28(1)(a)	Every child has the right to a name and nationality from birth;

	28(1)(b)	Every child has the right to family care or parental care, or to appropriate alternative care when removed from the family environment.

	28(1)(d)	Every child has the right to be protected from maltreatment, neglect, abuse or degradation.

It refers to a number of things that the child needs to be protected from.

Vote 13, which is the Welfare vote, Programmes 3 and 4 indicate that the Department has provisions that can somehow minimise the problem of street children.  We are all aware that the increasing numbers of street children in this country is actually quite alarming.  It is a social and economical problem.

When you go to the city centres anywhere in this Province particularly, you feel ashamed when you see the number of street children either begging, or sleeping on pavements.  There are no recent statistics as such, but the figure estimated by the NCRC in 1993 was, roughly about 9 390.  Recently it was mentioned that it had increased to 15 000.  According to NCRC estimates of ages, the ages of the children range from 7 to 14 years.  Those are roughly the ages of the street children, and mainly, these street children, are boys.  The conditions in which they live are unhealthy and unacceptable.

I am happy that the Minister in his speech, on page 28, referred to, and I quote, "there is now a home for street children".  But these children are exposed to violence, abuse, including sexual abuse that takes place amongst themselves, and by people who exploit their vulnerability.  Food found in the dustbins, and leftovers from restaurants is far from a balanced diet that is needed for the development of a child, mentally and physically.

Statistics indicate that malnutrition in this country is at 38%.  Can you imagine if this is the percentage of malnutrition, what these children are exposed to.  What happens when they experience health problems?  The people blame this problem on poverty and unemployment in KwaZulu-Natal, but it is the political violence that is the cause of this problem.

Nobody talks about the irresponsible parenting of some of these children and the poor relationships between the father and the mother.  Nobody mentions that.  Nobody talks about the trauma that single parents go through and the majority are women.  But I am happy to say the Department of Justice, at long last, will be tabling some new laws.  Amongst the new laws is one that will follow up on irresponsible fathers who do not want to pay maintenance for their children.  This is one law that I would like to see in place very soon, because some of these children are being neglected by their fathers.  The fathers are alive.  Some children are being supported by their grandmothers from the little pension money that they receive from the Government.  It is unacceptable.  It is no longer acceptable that people are made to depend on Government hand-outs only.  It will be very important that Bills like this, will need to be supported by us in this House.

Whilst we do not have a policy on street children like we have for displaced people, or people in violent situations, provision is made for the Department to address the problem.

There has been very little focus on street children.  In the recent reports, there is more focus on substance abuse, and children in detention, and so forth.  I believe if the Department takes the initiative, it does not really have to do this all alone, there are NGOs dealing with quite a number of issues, like women abuse and other matters.  The Department can actually make use of some of these NGOs to assist in solving the problem of street children.  Some of these NGOs are actually funded by Government, or by the business community.

We need to make full use of the provisions that are already available in the Department, and in other departments like Safety and Security, or Justice with their programme of child protection.  Education and Culture has provisions for youth development that can also be used to address the problem of the street children.

The Department needs to take the initiative and make use of the provisions that is in Programme 4, that mentions the counselling of parents.  The counselling of parents is very important.  The longer these children roam in the streets, the more expensive it becomes for the Department or the Government to get them back to a normal life.

Also, it is important to get the communities involved.  It is not enough only to counsel parents, but we need to involve the communities.  We need to have programmes, awareness programmes, that will educate the communities on the importance of children.  That is one problem that we can address, namely the cause of street children.

We need to have the Department monitoring very strictly the provisions that are available in Programme 2.  The programme deals with child and family care, social relief and so forth. Some of these matters are being abused.  Some of the money is spent on things that are really not cast in stone, but it would help if it is monitored very carefully.  It will assist some of the parents who really do not have any means of caring for their children.  That is the reason why it needs to be monitored, how people use it.

However, I am quite disappointed when I looked at the budget estimates.  There is a proposed budget, I think, of R1 000 for social relief.  One wonders whether the person who made this estimate was really aware of the problems that we have, particularly here in KwaZulu-Natal.  So many people face a number of problems.  They have lost their homes, and we have children roaming the streets due to the violence that we have in this Province.  To be able to provide with such a small amount is really not acceptable to me, as Fatima.

Lastly, Chairperson, I would like to call upon this House to put its full weight behind this matter by ensuring that the problem of street children becomes a number one item on the agenda of this House.  All the Portfolio Committees should actually begin to talk about the problem that we are facing with the street children.  They are our children.  They belong to us.  We cannot shy away from it and say, , [we do not know, we can hear from their mothers who do not know where they disappeared to], they can see to it.  It is also this House's problem.

I would like to call upon the members of this Legislature to observe June 1, which is International Children's Day.  I want to be specific here.  I would like to see the fathers of this House really spoiling their children on this day, showing the love that they have for their own children.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  It is true.  In COSATU we have been able to force the management to actually observe the day of the children.  Various companies, I can assure you whether you like it or not, but it is happening, throughout this weekend will be providing entertainment for the children.  So therefore, if this House also follows suite, I would like to see us having a party for the children only.  That will be a good measure.  I thank you, Chairperson.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!

AN HON MEMBER: [Listen we do not want to take care of your children].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!  Thank you very much for saving us a few minutes.  The next name on the list [We call on ~Inkosi~ Gabhisa for nine minutes].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

TRANSLATION:  Sir, you of the Royal House, I say, let me be pleased, by your reading of the policy speech for such a long time and with such patience.  Also, sir, we saw it fit to do this because you spoke about elderly people who are our parents, Mageba.  Sir, you of the Royal House, here in this country of ours, all the nations like this country of KwaZulu-Natal, because this country is rich.  

Just take a look, Mageba, but they come from Lesotho, they come from Swaziland, they come from the Transkei to come and rob money here.  They are coming to take things greedily from our elderly women, sir.  But Mageba, I am pleased by what you are doing, because although some slip through, you catch many of them.  I wish you would continue catching them, because they cause our elderly people to get reduced money, they cut them short.

Sir, there is something else hurting us in your Department, Mageba.  These people who are paying pensions, particularly white people.  I am not sure whether they are still continuing with discrimination.  These white people, they are very rude.  

I have investigated this thing, and investigated it with the magistrates.  They are not doing what the magistrates say, they are just following their own thinking.  There was another one in front there, he was ultimately replaced by someone else.  He had become so rude that I was thinking of coming to you to report him.

Now during this past pay-out for pensioners, they arrived in some places at 5.00, at 6.00 in the afternoon, and they were paying elderly women and the car lights were on.  Now, sir, this thing is difficult, because by this time the elderly women are already very hungry.  

Secondly, when the elderly women return home, they do not use the main road used by cars, but they use paths going up and down.  The thugs then make plans of laying ambush along that path and rob these elderly women.  There are many elderly women who arrive without the money, because it has been taken by thugs along the way, because of being paid at night.

When I questioned the police who stand guard there, the police say this white person just does whatever he chooses.  The magistrates warned him against doing this thing.  He is just following his own thinking.  I said, oh, but this white person is just as rude as the one who left.  I do not know what causes white people to do this, yet we respect them so much, we like them so much.  They undermine us and they are rude to us, they are so rude to us.

Now, sir, there is something good that you are doing that pleases ~Amakhosi~ and rural communities.  What you do, to occasionally visit the courts and bring together ~Amakhosi~ and also bring elderly people to listen to their complaints, sir.  The elderly people, Mageba, like this very much, and we, ~Amakhosi~, also like that you occasionally come and listen to the complaints of the elderly.  The elderly women become so happy, sir, when they know of your visits to come and listen to their complaints.  T/E

AN HON MEMBER: [INTERJECTION]!

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: [I will just start embarrassing you.  [LAUGHTER].

AN HON MEMBER: [Sir, do not embarrass black people, they are as troublesome as white people].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: [Because if I woo you, you will merely refuse to be my lover].

AN HON MEMBER:.  [Do not pay any attention, sir, just continue].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

TRANSLATION:  Sir, I requested a chance to mention particularly these three things you are doing, sir, going to the courts, listening to ~Amakhosi~, going to the elderly women and listening to their complaints.  I wish that you can continue with this work.

The elderly women just become so happy when they know of your visits, they just become so happy.  Therefore I support your Department, Mageba, with all my might, and for the patience you demonstrated in reading for us, descendant of the Royal House.  T/E

AN HON MEMBER:.  [This is the same thing].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA:]  [Do I ever speak and you just keep quiet?  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON: [We are pleased, Gabhisa, we are even pleased for the minutes you gave us].  The next name on the list is the hon Mrs C Galea, for 10 minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Chairperson.  I wish to thank the hon Minister G Zulu, and his Department for giving us this report timeously.  It definitely does help one when one works on your debate.  I would like to thank him for his comprehensive policy speech.

The Department of Welfare is responsible for the payment of 600 000 Social Security beneficiaries, and the number is increasing.  This is where 94% of the Welfare budget is spent.

Of concern is still the unacceptable backlog of pension applications and queries.  In reply to my questions as at January 1998, a total of 27 357 applications, and 274 pension queries were still outstanding.  There is a decrease in the backlog figures in Durban, but it is ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MRS C E GALEA:  Do you mind?  There is a decrease in the backlog of figures in Durban, but it is not very considerable due to:

(a)	The considerable intake of new applications;
(b)	The increase in computer network down-times.  The time lost per month is 22 hours.  That is three days.
(c)	This is compounded by the slow computer response times, average per day of two hours.

In ~Ulundi~ the figures have steadily decreased, but progress is seriously being hampered due to problems with SOCPEN and the slow response times.  This has been a problem for a few years, and must be taken up nationally.  I am no computer expert, but I do know that when the response times are slow that computer is overloaded, and we must do something about it.

The beneficiaries, most of them pensioners, rely on their pension every month in order to survive.  The amount of R210 million budgeted for the arrear payments is most welcome.  Beneficiaries who applied in December 1996, which were processed and were held back will now be paid in June 1998.

I just want to read Chapter 2, section 27(1) of the Constitution:

		Everyone has the right to have access to:

		(c)	social security, including, if they are unable to support themselves and their dependants, appropriate social assistance.

It is such a poor show that most of these people are really relying on their pension, and because of financial constraints, have had to wait so long.

On page 24, the announcements of the 4,3% increase coming into effect from July is most welcome.  The war veteran grants will increase from R488 to R509.  Old age, disability and care dependent grants will increase from R470 to R490.  Foster care grants will increase from R340 to R350.  And in October these people will all get another R10, which is super. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me, hon member.  There is a request that you please use the microphone to your right, because you are not being properly recorded.  If you could concentrate slightly on your microphones, because there is a problem with the recording up there.  Thank you.

MRS C E GALEA:  Sorry.  Grants-in-aid will increase from R80 to R90, and that will remain.  They do not get the extra increase in October. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  This is when injury time is really needed.

MRS C E GALEA:  Let me use this one.  Sorry.  The nationally driven registration process, which we have been told will commence from, at the latest August 1998, is likely to uncover the number of beneficiaries fraudulently receiving grants.  This is which the Heath Commission estimated would be 20% of the budget.  In this article in the Mercury of 12 March 1998, it reads:

	That welfare and social grants covering three million beneficiaries will take up nearly R19 billion.

Can you imagine the savings that we will have?  The Minister, in his report on page 6 of his speech, mentioned the figure of 5% to 10% in KwaZulu-Natal, which means a saving of R150 million to R300 million in financial terms.  This is most welcome, because this will help us to meet our financial commitments with this mean, lean budget that we have before us.

Then I would like to talk on HIV/AIDS.  Unfortunately, I lost my badge this morning in the car park, but I will have to ask Dr Mkhize for another one.  Our Province is the worst affected.  The KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet's AIDS initiative aims to involve all sectors in society of spreading the AIDS message, "Together we can win".  People living with HIV/AIDS, and their families experience problems, which includes social stigma, rejection, isolation, radically altered rules, loss of control over, and destruction of expectations for the future, fear of physical and mental disability, and of imminent death.  They need care, counselling and support.  The AIDS orphans, child headed families, abandoned children have to be treated within the home.  Where no support systems are available, the Department will have to resort to cluster foster homes or children's homes.

I am so glad that the staff are being trained in counselling these people who have AIDS to equip them to meet the needs of this growing problem.  As mentioned in the Health debate, AIDS can be beaten if we prevent it from spreading.

The other topic I would like to speak on is Secure Care.  The Excelsior Place of Safety has been identified and structurally altered for those awaiting trial.  It is suited to accommodate 70 youths.  It is evident from the figures of the Westville Prison Youth Centre that this is insufficient.  There is a need to replicate the project.  In the report it is mentioned that social workers from Excelsior are rendering services to 270 children awaiting trial.  These services include ongoing assessment and counselling with the emphasis on diverting children out of the criminal justice system.  Currently, as is mentioned in the report, there are 77 children being detained at prison and police cells on the lower South Coast, while Westville Prison has over 300 children.

In the budget no funds are provided for normal growth in the number of beneficiaries.  This Province also has the largest population and should receive more funds.  However, one must look at utilising facilities properly, to stop the duplication of services and retrain the existing staff in the Community.  Development is welcomed and is essential to those assisting the people to become self-supportive as soon as possible.

In the case of Secure Places of Safety, the intended releasing of juvenile offenders into society must be looked into as a matter of extreme urgency, so that those officials in charge will have arranged suitable alternate accommodation.

The National Party would strongly urge that the welfare given in Social Assistance Programmes should be work orientated, and individuals should be assisted to regain their economic independence and self-esteem.

As a result of the budget cuts, welfare organisations find it difficult to deal with the problems that accompany retrenchment due to poor economic conditions.  The Government's inability to combat crime has a negative effect on family structures and discipline among the young people, and this places further pressures on the Department of Welfare and Population Development.  The Department, due to financial constraints, has not yet made adequate provision for housing child and juvenile criminals.

Madam Chair, I can talk a lot more, but I do not know how much time I have left.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just three seconds, Madam.

MRS C E GALEA:  All right, if it is three seconds.  In closing, I wish to thank all the members of staff who have been so helpful to me when I have had problems brought to my attention, and to the Welfare Portfolio, our Chairman, the hon Vincent Ngema, and the Committee members.  Even though we are from different political parties, we really have the interests of the people of KwaZulu-Natal in mind.  We all work together extremely well.  For that, I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The next name on our list is the hon Mrs A Mchunu.  You have got nine minutes.

MRS A MCHUNU:  I thank you, Madam Chair.  It is an honour and a privilege to contribute to the debate on Social Welfare and Population Development.

 [Mageba, the work that you and your Department has done is highly commendable, taking care of orphans and people with no one to take care of them].

The hon Minister, Prince G L Zulu, is highly commended for the work he and his Ministry have done during 1997/1998.  The scarce resources intended for the aged, disabled, orphans and other categories, is targeted by people with two feet and fast thinking brains.  The Department then has two jobs to do, that of caring for the disadvantaged and to face the people who had taken away the money put aside for the disadvantaged.  The Ministry is praised therefore, for sticking to its job and doing it well.

I am going to look at the key policy objectives and deal with the third one.  That is, to promote and strengthen partnerships between Government, the community, the society and the private sector with respect to the delivery of service in the face of inadequate funding, insufficient management structures and capacity, insufficient financial and personnel administration and where the level of fraudulent activity is relatively high.

I appreciate the approach adopted by the Government, and the Ministry of Social Welfare and Population Development, for acknowledging the fact that the Government cannot do everything for the people, to relieve them from their social ills.  The people have to help themselves, and the Government can focus on doing its best to provide financial support.  Family members belong with each other, and basically have to care for each other physically, mentally and emotionally.  The breakdown of the family fibre through urbanisation of the young and active members of a family have created gaps in the family lives.

The move by the Ministry to play a role in development is commendable.  Volunteer organisations have to be encouraged to keep families together, and to point at cracks in families that can lead to social disintegration.  As it is, the Government or the Ministry may provide funds, but if the family members themselves cannot look after each other, even that money will not make any difference.  If we think, for instance, of the pensioners who get their money, but at the end of the day are robbed by their own sons.  It is very, very important that families learn to live in harmony.

The HIV/AIDS problem is the worst enemy of our communities, and it affects all of us at all strata.  HIV/AIDS is a socio-economic disease and is linked to poverty, the breakdown of the moral fibre in society, poor child care as my sister Nahara stated, and others.  All sectors now agree that HIV/AIDS is not just a sinner's disease, that is of prostitutes and casanovas.  Partners in marriage, that are stable, are affected if one of the partners dare to venture out.  We have to focus on children and the youth.  The religious approach emphasising strong moral teaching has to be strengthened.

MR B H CELE:  Point of order, Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am taking a point of order.

MR B H CELE:  Is it parliamentary for the member to call me a casanova?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is not a point of order.  Will you resume your seat.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS A MCHUNU:  Madam Chair, Mr Cele, I did not know that he was a casanova.  [LAUGHTER]  The budget may appear to be adequate, but caring for terminally ill AIDS cases is very expensive.  It leaves families very, very poor after trying to cure the sufferer.  Prevention is better than cure, and as yet, there is just no cure for HIV/AIDS.  The attitude of "I will not die alone" adopted by the youth is very irresponsible, and actually implies that we will all have struggled for nothing if our youth will not inherit the fruit of liberation.  The struggle against HIV/AIDS is to be intensified by all sectors.  I commend all the groups that are involved with this.  For instance, we have got NACOSA and other NGOs.

We will have to help the youth in developing new slogans.  Mr Cele, you will have to join me in this, for example: "Zips and pants kept intact.  Love you have in your heart".  Did you get that one?  [LAUGHTER]

Violence against women is a very sad scenario, because it shows that there are men who have not been taught how to approach ladies. [Young men no longer know how to woo].  There is a mental grudge in them that they are approaching a grinding stone which is going to flatten their heads, [They say the grinding stone will flatten their heads.  No, it is not so].  No, we as women are sisters, cousins, wives, mothers and grandmothers of all our men.  The animal instinct has to be controlled, and teachings have to be started at home.  Deviant behaviour has to be dealt with by the law.  It is also the women as mothers, who run to lawyers to seek help with bail or release from gaol.  We women, are not consistent with what we want, or what course the law needs to take.

The death of a mother or any woman in the society means the death of a teacher, a nurse, a social worker and a breadwinner within a family.  The society is always the one that loses, because it is plunged into material and spiritual poverty.

The abuse of children is even more shameful than one can imagine.  Counselling grief stricken parents, or a parent whose child has been abused is like being in a vacuum with no hope of getting oxygen anywhere, both for the counsellor and the counselled.  Child abuse is more than a sin in the eyes of God, since children are totally innocent in any relationship, be it the neighbours or the parents.  The concern of the Department and the involvement of SAPS is welcomed.  An increase in social security and care grants is welcomed.

Disaster relief and trauma counselling receives a slice from the budget.  In view of the many victims of violence, and children of the victims of violence who have to leave school when their parents are killed, there is a need for financial support in this area.  My sister Fatima mentioned this, and I concur with her.

Pensioners need to be honoured for the role they play in families.  They perform work which they are not actually supposed to perform, caring for. [grandchildren].  People who rob the aged by fraud or corruption are actually robbing the communities that are supported by the aged.

Mr Mageba, you and your Ministry deserve applause for all the work that you have done, and motivations that you have made for the budget.  We know that it is not easy to motivate for a budget, but you have done this with success.  We also would like to thank the Minister at national level for hearing our pleas, because we really have a big problem here in KwaZulu-Natal.  If we look at the figures of HIV in a few years time many, many people will be in their graves, and this country of ours will be left to only a few people to inherit it.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The next speaker on the list is the hon Mr N Ngidi, for 13 minutes.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Madam Chairperson.  Social welfare deals with a group of people who, for a number of reasons, are not in a position to help themselves.  The aged, the disabled, and the children are, in the majority of cases, the objects for social welfare programmes.  In this care therefore, social welfare can be seen as part of the remedial measures that society work out to alleviate the position of the abovenamed people.  Social welfare becomes the means to address their unfortunate circumstances.  It is my view that social welfare programmes should not only be remedial in approach, but should have pro-active programmes to help these people to become economically active and contribute toward the economic building of this country.

The Constitution of the country provides in Section 10 as follows:

	Everyone has inherent dignity and the right to have their dignity respected and protected.

This means that the Constitution should remind us that even these people whose circumstances are addressed by social welfare programmes, have dignity.  These programmes therefore need to reaffirm their dignity and protect it.  More often than not our aged, disabled and the young lack respect in society, and are not given the respectable positions they deserve.  The Constitution therefore enjoins us to ensure that nothing takes away their dignity.  It becomes the duty of the Government to ensure that the dignity of these people is protected.

Our welfare programmes need to portray this constitutional requirement.  Particularly, we need to ensure that the manner in which our senior citizens receive their pension money does not impair on their dignity.

Madam Chair, the economic context within which programmes of social welfare occur needs some brief examination.  The White Paper graphically outlines this:

	South Africa is characterised by large scale unemployment in the formal sector of the economy.

	The formal economy created an estimated 350 000 employment opportunities between 1980 and 1991, while the extended labour force grew by 4,5 million people.  During this time, the number of people who were unemployed or in the informal sector (32%) more than doubled, while up to 20% of the extended labour force had to make a living from subsistence agriculture.

This has meant that a number of households have had to rely on social welfare programmes.  This is particularly the case in rural areas.  The White Paper confirms this by saying:

	Rural households rely mainly on remittances and State social grants for income.

Another problem that has to be attended to, here, is that of access to these remittances and social grants.

This state of affairs places a lot of strain on our people.  Dire economic conditions result in enormous needs which need to be met one way or the other.  Government must therefore make provision to meet some of these needs through programmes of social welfare.  It is in recognition of this that the Constitution of this country provides in Section 27(1)(c) as follows:

	Everyone has the right to have access to social security, including, if they are unable to support themselves and their dependents, appropriate social assistance.

The provision therefore of social security, child grants, disability grants is a constitutional requirement.  Ours is to ensure that nothing comes in the way of the realisation of this.  Governmental structures must do all in their power to facilitate the accessing of those less fortunate of social welfare programmes.

Moving from this premise, it becomes worrying therefore if there are cases where the disabled have to wait for long periods without receiving their grants.  It is equally worrying that there are aged whose grants are terminated for no apparent reason.  The Government has a constitutional duty to ensure that this does not happen.  In fact, this Government is very fortunate that we have not had to spend a lot of money on legal fees as a result of it being taken to the Constitutional Court where our aged and disabled seek to defend their constitutional rights.

It is for this reason that we welcome the announcement by the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development, that it will soon be embarking on re-registration to deal with corruption and weed out corrupt elements, who may be illegally accessing social pensions.  We pray that this process will be expedited soon, so as not to prolong the misery of our aged and to ensure that these really become their golden years.  However, there is a danger that we have to be mindful of.  There are unscrupulous people who have begun to extort bribes from our elderly people, on the pretext that this is required by the Department.  The Minister would be well advised to look into this matter and investigate it with the same vigour as that he has shown so far, and secured the arrest of those scoundrels involved.

Speaking on this vote last year, I said that, "Old age must not be turned into a curse".  It is important therefore that any impediment that prevents our aged from accessing what is due to them, due to their advanced age, has to be removed with utmost speed.  Our senior citizens deserve to live in dignity.  Let us defend this right, and not let it be abused by those whose consciences have long deserted them.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to turn my attention to the disabled of our country.  It is my feeling that within social welfare programmes they need to be attended to.  In fact, we as the Province need to work out as a matter of urgency a disability strategy.  This strategy must begin with an audit of the disabled people within our Province.  The disabled have been so neglected that statistics relating to them is hard to come by.  Country wide, the Central Statistical Service has put the disabled people at 5%.  We need to have the figures, because in any integrated economic planning they need to feature prominently.

The disabled have been excluded from the mainstream of society.  As a result, our disabled are prevented from accessing their rights, be they educational, social, political or economical.  This has been exacerbated by the fact that it is in the main poor people who have a greater risk of impairment or disability.  More than this, disabled people suffer from many disadvantages.  Apart from the attitude of the society towards the disabled, they are excluded in many ways, including legally from being economically active.

There is an extremely high level of unemployment among the disabled, and this can be attributed to the following:

1.	Low skills levels due to inadequate education;
2.	Discriminatory attitudes and practices by employers;
3.	Past discriminatory and ineffective labour legislation;
4.	Lack of enabling mechanisms to promote employment opportunities;
5.	Inaccessible public transport;
6.	Inaccessible and unsupportive work and school environments;
7.	Inadequate and inaccessible provision for vocational rehabilitation and training;
8.	Generally high levels of unemployment;
9.	The fact that menial labour is often the only option for poorly skilled job seekers;
10.	Inadequate access to information; and
11.	Ignorance of society.

Much attention needs to be paid to the disabled, particularly the disabled children.  What is even worse is that the family who has a disabled child is put under severe strain.  There are some of these children who need special care which becomes an economic burden to the family.  There is a need therefore, for our Department of Social Welfare and Population to pay attention to this category of people in need of care.

Madam Chair, I reiterate the call that I made last year, that of a pro-active youth development programme.  Let me repeat what I said last year, and I quote:

	A nation that neglects its youth does not deserve its future.  The only way of successfully investing in the future of our Province, is to put in place a pro-active youth development programme.  It must be a programme that "uplifts the youth from the ravages of the life of poverty".  It must be a programme that instills in them a sense of dignity and gives them hope in the future.  The youth needs to be engaged in "meaningful ventures in order for them to learn that they have a duty to make a positive input in society".  The programme must also address "social instability that has resulted in high teenage parenthood, delinquency, crime and exposure to sexually transmitted diseases and violence".

It would appear that this call fell on deaf ears.  We need to attend to our youth, and ensure that they play a meaningful role in the development of our society.  We have to move away from regarding them as nothing but wayward social misfits.  With these words, I support the vote, hoping though that this year we will be accountable and really look after our Rands and cents.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Madam Chair, on a point of order.  Can we please ask the youthful Mr Xaba to stay awake.  Thank you.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The next name on the list is the hon Mr M J Mthiyane.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I am concerned, Madam Chair, on the 6 o'clock news last night, COSATU was criticising the Department of Education in this Province.  I do not know where COSATU comes into this.  Today a member of this Legislature spoke about COSATU whilst debating this issue.  It is bad.  [LAUGHTER]  It is a bad attitude for COSATU to interfere with the Department of Education, and only criticise this Province, whereas there are problems all over.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Madam Chair.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  But now they only isolate this Province. [The red card here, Madam Chair].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, let us hear.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Will the hon member take a question?

MR M J MTHIYANE:  will take the question if she asks it in Zulu]  [LAUGHTER]. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Continue, hon member.

MR M J MTHIYANE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  This really concerns me, why COSATU wants to interfere.  There are problems in working places where COSATU are supposed to address the problems of workers.  Soon I think COSATU will come and address family matters, because COSATU wants to be the referee in this country irrespective of the workers.  I am worried, Madam Chair, and it is very bad.

Madam Chair, I want to compliment the Minister for his courageous and wise words contained in his speech.  We are living in a time where things are dramatically changing.  Mankind has lost its mind and do unbelievable things.

The Department is experiencing problems with fraud that is being committed by the people who are within the Department.  The pension sector is affected the worst.  Whoever thought that people could be so bold as to steal from the poor and aged people who are not eligible to work.  I strongly believe that these actions are coupled with the strategies of discrediting the Minister.

However, it is with happiness that I congratulate the Minister for successfully curbing, and arresting those thugs.  I have no doubt whatsoever that the fraud is not being committed within the Department but from outside.  However, I am glad that the Minister is putting in every effort to deal with this matter.

Madam Chair, even respected professionals like doctors and nurses also embark on such illegal actions, defrauding the Government, by issuing sick certificates to young people so that they can obtain a premature pension.  That is why I say that we are living in dramatic changing times, because those young people obtain sick certificates from the doctors and then are paid.  But I am glad that the Minister will stop this very soon.

I would also like to extend my gratitude and appreciation to the Police for the work they are doing in terms of preventing this behaviour.  The police are working hard.  I have seen them arresting people who have obtained these doctor's certificates and as a result were paid.


TRANSLATION:  Maybe we will be assisted if all of us in our areas pay attention to those people who are stealing elderly people's money.  Maybe that will help us very much.  We will not be assisted by the police alone, but we will be assisted when we too look at it in our areas and at the sites where they get paid, because corruption slips through everywhere.  

These elderly women do not get money, yet the thugs are quick to get the money, even though they got through corruption, because everything of theirs disregards the law.

Sir, I say, let me also express gratitude as the others who have thanked you earlier for your commendable work and your dedication.  We see you appear in the courts where you return from arresting thugs who steal elderly people's money.  Thank you, sir.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The next speaker on the list is the hon R M Burrows, for eight minutes.  Thank you

MR R M BURROWS:  Madam Chair, I would like to thank the hon the Minister for his report, and for his comprehensive and exhaustive presentation that he gave us this morning.  The information contained in the report will make good and useful work for all of us during the course of the year.

There are a number of points that I do want to pick up.  Those of us who believe in social democracy, believe that it is important that society has a safety net for those who are unable to fend or care for themselves.  This presupposes that a judgment has to be made between those who can care for themselves, and those who cannot care for themselves.  Here I am particularly referring in the first instance, to the means test that is applicable with regard to social pensions.

There is a particular case that I have already sent through to the Minister's Department that I want to cite as an example.  That is of a principal of a primary school in this Province who is earning a salary of around about R100 000 a year, who is also currently in receipt of a social pension.  That I find somewhat surprising, and that is the reason it was sent through to the Minister's Department recently.  But the implications of it are even more serious.

The implication for this person, it happens to be a woman, is that she could retire in two or three years time having been a principal, and gain a civil pension which will be, in case she has worked all her life in education, around about 70% of her final salary.  She will get a civil pension, and she will be getting a social pension.

It just seems to me, Mr Minister, that one of the first things in checking for people who are receiving social pensions is to check against the computer bases that are currently in existence.  Why do you not start with this Legislature.  Just make sure that there is nobody in this Legislature who is getting a social pension, because that really would be fraudulent.

The second thing that I would suggest be checked, is to check the 185 000 that work for the Province.  Check against that computer system, PERSAL, against the social pension number.  If this case exists, where a principal can be receiving a social pension, then I must tell you there are probably many people working for the Province who are earning salaries and are getting a social pension, who should not.  I believe disciplinary action should be taken against them.

The third area that can be compared is that of the civil pension list where, in co-operation with the Bureau of Civil Pensions in Pretoria, it is possible to compare the computer position of persons earning civil pensions above a certain minimum and compare them with the social pension list, because the one thing is that the means test, if it is applicable, can be applied quite easily in that way.

So those three clear tests should be applied, and applied immediately.  I would suggest, with respect, that the Minister does that.

The second area I want to raise is referred to in the speech of the hon Minister.  That is the application from 1 April this year of the amendment to the Social Assistance Act of 1992, which states that:

	The commitment of the State to pay a pension commences from the date of the approval of the application.

Not from the date the application went in.

	And that the State should only pay for three months back.

I have a problem with this, because quite frankly, and I know the officials of this Department have been involved in court cases in this particular area.  If the Department has an application submitted in December of one year, and it takes them six months to process it, they are only going to pay out in June of the following year and not when the person actually applied for it.  I actually do not think you can do that.  I think it is not in fact legally possible.  I am going to suggest to the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee that the one thing the Portfolio Committee of Welfare must do is to check at every meeting on the delays currently being experienced in handling applications.

I note that there is a sum of R210 million laid aside in terms of arrear payments.  These are arrear payments that were incurred before 1 April 1998.  I am concerned that we cannot from 1 April allow more than three months to expire before you have cleared the application, because the moment you do the pensioner is being penalised, not the State.  I must really urge that that be handled very expeditiously.

I am also concerned in terms of the payment of the R210 million, in terms of applications received after December 1996, and there are apparently about 12 000 of them, that still need to be paid out, that that will commence in June of this year.  It looks as if it is going to be staggered over a two or three month period.  But once again I must make the point that the pensioners are not being told about this.  Organisations like the Black Sash are flooded, and I know the officials from the Department are aware of this, are flooded with pensioners who are saying, "But what is happening?  Please tell us what is happening".  So at some point I must say to the Department that they must inform the pensioners by means of a notice in the media, in all languages, as to exactly what is happening.  When they are going to be paid out, how it is going to be processed, and who they can talk to in this regard.

The third point I want to raise is the one that was raised by the hon Mr Ngidi, and it is one that does concern me.  That is the question of disabled persons.  We already have a situation in education, entirely unacceptable, where we have some 11 000 young people in schools for learning disabilities, so-called ELSEN Schools.  Education for Learners with Special Educational Needs.  11 000.  It represents 0,3% of the pupil population.

Mr Ngidi is absolutely correct.  Disabilities make up between 5% and 10% of the population.  We actually should have educational facilities for between 150 000 and 200 000 young people.  When we look at the desirable social aims of some of our national legislation, including employment in the public service, which should be 2% disabled, in terms of the recent White Paper, the difficulty one faces is finding sufficient young people who have in fact the educational capacity to be absorbed.  Really, it is an issue that I think Welfare and Education need to address particularly quickly.

In terms of the handling of the backlog, and I notice that the backlog has and is being reduced, and the hon Mrs Galea has referred to it.  I must once again say let us use some volunteers.  Let us use people, pay them on an hourly basis, or pay them by file handling, particularly the elderly.  This town particularly, but also in Durban and I am sure in ~Ulundi~, has a number of retired civil servants who would be only too willing to take on the additional load and gain at least an hourly income.

Two quick things before I end off, Madam Chair.  The saga of the St Anne's/Mason Lincoln School is a shame and a stigma on all of us.  It is a shame and a stigma on all of us.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can the hon member wrap up.

MR R M BURROWS:  I will do that, Madam Chair.  Badly handled by Education, badly handled by Welfare, and put aside by Health.  It really needs to be sorted out.

Finally, Madam Chair, last sentence.  Population development.  I do not see how you can cut staff by 60%, close six local offices and then say you think the population census of 1996 was inaccurate.  We need to look at the population, and the population research in this area much more closely.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are going to have a break as has been requested by the members.  The Whips have concurred.  But before we break, Prince G L Zulu has requested an opportunity to make a short announcement.  We are going to adjourn for lunch from 12:45 till 13:30.  First I will hand over to the hon Minister, because this is a matter of serious public importance.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  Lady Chair, it is sad news.  It has been reported that Induna Cele and Induna Maphumulo were ambushed and killed today.  Two weeks ago Induna Jerome Ncwane of Mdumezulu in the Umbumbulu area was killed.  It is sad because the ANC said that the IFP had no right to open branches in that area.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon members, as this announcement has been made in this House, and lives have been lost, can I request that we stand and observe a moment of silence.

HON MEMBERS STAND

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  May their souls rest in peace.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Amen.  We will break and resume at 13:30.  Thank you

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 12:45
	RESUMED AT 13:31

RESUMED DEBATE : VOTE 13 DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We were in agreement that we resume at 13:30.  The Committee of Supply will continue.  The next name on our list is the hon Mrs Ford for nine minutes.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  My congratulations to the hon Minister, Prince G L Zulu, and his Department on a very difficult job well done.

The words "Social Welfare", according to Websters, means, "Social, affecting public interest, and Welfare, meaning state or condition in regard to the wellbeing of the population".

With this in mind, Madam Chair, let us make a list of some of those functions for which this vast Department is responsible:

-	Pensions and disability grants
-	Maintenance grants, child support grants
-	Care dependency grants
-	Disaster relief
-	Social Assistance
-	Child and Family care
-	Social Development
-	Population Development

To name some of them.

I can imagine, Madam Chair, as I am sure you can, the delighted reaction of pensioners who have, in the last few days, heard that from 1 July they will receive an additional R20, and thereafter an additional R10 from 1 October.  Thus making a total pension of R500 per month.

I suspect that this is another ANC election ploy, as this is once again an unfunded mandate.  The additional amount must be funded from savings!  This is a point I trust the non-existent media will take note of.

Speaking of the upcoming elections, how many of the old age pensioners have an ID book with a bar code?  Who then is going to be turned away when they want to register to vote?  The Aged.  Once again, they will be victimised, and by who?  The ANC Government.  The "oldies" have IDs otherwise they would not be receiving a pension.

When we talk about the Child Care Grant up to the age of seven, it is all very well, but what happens when that child turns seven, and the circumstances have not changed?  I am told by the National Minister of Social Welfare that after that age school feeding schemes, housing subsidies and community development projects will take over.  That is a positive statement you are wanting me to make.  I have made a positive statement.  Right.

Now, Madam Chair, that all sounds very logical, but what about those areas where the feeding schemes are not operating in schools?  No housing subsidies are being applied because no housing projects are in the offing.  Surely these other options should have been put in place and functioning properly before the maintenance grant was abolished.

Outside interventions need to be sought to supplement the budgetary cuts.  What we as politicians need to do is embark on a program of empowerment, empowering our people regardless of budgetary cuts.  The ultimate goal must be to create a self-reliant culture.  A culture in which families and communities are imbued with a spirit of self-responsibility.  The possibility of a closer co-operation between the public and private sectors will help empower individuals and communities towards a culture of self-reliance and self-sufficiency and move away from "something for nothing".  The notion of hard work and rewards for the work accomplished, is a central principle of the IFP policy on welfare.  We, as a party, have continually called for a culture of self-help, self-reliance and ~Ubuntu~.

Madam Chair, the section of our society who have been the most disadvantaged, is our children.  We have child abuse, street children, child offenders and prisons with adults.  Can you imagine how those youngsters are abused while they are in prison?  Drugs are another danger facing our youth, and I appeal to all members, when addressing election meetings from now on, to include in their speeches a word of warning to the youth on the dangers of drugs and alcohol.  Even if each one of us only reaches one child, there will be at least some children saved.

I congratulate the hon Minister, and his Department on their achievements in fighting fraud.  20 convictions, 83 persons having been charged, and 60 outstanding cases where investigations are underway.  I hope that next year these statistics become at least 163 convictions.

I want to just mention something about HIV/AIDS.  The attitude of some people in regard to this problem is very worrying.  Yesterday in this House an hon member put a motion on the table promoting a "true love waits" campaign among our youth.  This campaign calls for our young people to abstain from sex until marriage in the fight against AIDS.  Madam Chair, I was disgusted and horrified to see the way this motion was received.  Flippant remarks and questions were asked by members on the other side of this House.

Madam Chair, I would make an earnest appeal to all members to treat this scourge in a responsible and serious manner.  After all, we as members of Provincial Parliament expect to be regarded as leaders.  Let us then lead by example.

When it comes to child abuse, Madam Chair, this is something that makes my blood boil, and if for no other crime, I feel that the death penalty should be re-instituted for this one.  Because anyone who can abuse a defenceless child should not have any rights at all. 

As far as the population development unit is concerned, we need to allocate funds in relation to its role.  The current allocation in budgetary levels indicates a distortion in understanding.  The population development unit is of immense importance in enabling Government and its various departments to prepare for the future in the form of schools, education, social sciences and others.

The sum total of the activities of these departments must be such that the future of the citizens must be secured.  It also enables us to predict what the future holds, in what direction to manoeuvre, the ideal social standing and ensure that the quality of life is maintained.  Madam Chair, what I am advocating is to move away from the principles of dependency towards self-reliance.  

Re-registration of pensioners.  This, I am sure, is going to cause an awful lot of confusion amongst the pensioners, and I appeal to the Department to embark on an intensive education campaign, if they have not already started, to help the pensioners understand the necessity of re-registering, because I can imagine these old people, when they are told they have to re-register, saying, "I registered 10 years ago", or, "I registered last year and now you are asking me to go through the whole business again".  I think education for them is very, very important.

In closing, Madam Chair, may I wish the hon Minister, and all the members in his Department "the best of British luck", as they say in the classics.  Thank you

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for the few minutes which you have given us.  The next speaker on the list, I do not see the members in the House.  For the sake of the record, Mr Khoza and Mrs Downs, I now have an amended speakers' list.  We call on the next member, hon D P Mfayela, for eight minutes.

MRS O E FORD:  Madam Chair, you have missed out the hon Mr Naicker.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  According to the amended list which was given to me by the Whips, Mr Naicker will speak after the hon member Mr Mfayela.  Thank you.  Sorry for the confusion.

MR D P MFAYELA:  Chairperson, hon members, it is a pleasure for me to contribute towards such a wonderful budget debate, delivered by the Minister to the hon House.

It is true and justified that all the members in this chamber support this budget vote.  It shows that if this country had been ruled by the ~Inkatha~ Freedom Party from 1994 it would have been up to date and justice would have prevailed in this country.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR D P MFAYELA:, [I have said it], money would have been spent in the correct manner and been given to the big Bishops of this world who were singing a song of gravy train in the year 1994, which now they are sitting in a gravy plane of the TRC where the funds of taxpayers is used uncounted.

When you think about these things, you wonder whether they ever think of the poor street children that are all over, with no shelter over them.

Chairperson, hon House, when you listen and hear our hon members, Ministers of this Province complaining about the severe budget cuts, you wonder whether they are not embarrassed by this.  It leaves you with a question.  Chairperson, will you please permit us to walk the streets of this town and demonstrate and inform our people that they must not vote for the ANC in 1999, because they cannot govern this country.

Coming back to your Department, Mageba, I would be failing in my duty if I forget to thank all your officials for the hard work, and dedication, that they are doing for the nation at large, more especially in the Province of the KwaZulu Kingdom. [Your feelings have been touched, son].

Chairperson, hon members, we are praying for that Task Team that is trying to trace those people that keep on crossing the border from Swaziland into our Province with the aim of collecting our poor people's money.  Those members of our community who have relatives in Swaziland and who are hiding these people must tell them that we paid our lobola in Swaziland.  So we do not owe them anything, they are stealing.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for keeping within your time.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  I would like to call for order.  I cannot let the speakers speak when there is such a commotion.  Thank you for assisting me.  I call upon the hon member S V Naicker, for nine minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Thank you.  Madam Chair, I also want to express my compliments to the Minister, to his administration and heads of Department for their efforts in placing before this House a comprehensive Welfare report.  Before I proceed, Madam Chair, I will be failing if I do not also pay my special respects to the Chairman of the Welfare Portfolio Committee, Mr Ngema, and the Committee as a whole for their untiring efforts, their dedication and committal towards the survival of this very, very important and vital Welfare Department.

I agree with the hon Mr Ngema when he spoke about the pay-points.  Pay-points merely means taking the service to the people.  Like with education, you either take the child to the school, or the school to the child.  In the same vein, Madam Chair, it is imperative that we must appreciate the difficulties the people in outlying areas experience.  For that reason we must apply our minds and to the best of our ability endeavour to assist those people to receive their grants with the least amount of inconvenience.

The hon Mrs Connie Galea also spoke about the delays, and the population of this particular Province which makes up 25% of the population of this country.  The hon Mr Ngidi made a very, very respectful contribution.  To my mind, this particular debate has been within the ambit of absolute dignity and in accordance with the matters which we are discussing.

To continue, Madam Chair, child rape which has been discussed here today, the stats reflect that a total of 21 404 cases of child rape were reported countrywide last year.  Most cases were reported in Gauteng, followed by KwaZulu-Natal with 4 603 cases.  This figure is indeed not an encouraging figure, and it is all the more reason that this Department should apply its mind to this problem.  Research established that malnutrition among children remains endemic, and that an estimated 2,3 million South Africans were judged to be nutritionally compromised with 87% being non-whites and under the age of 12 years.

I want to refer to a very, very important statement that was made by the Commission.  The Commission called for overall child care laws.  This aspect does not even appear in this report.  I would like the hon Minister, together with the heads of Department to take note of this.

	Child care laws in South Africa are hopelessly inadequate and in need of comprehensive revision to meet constitutional international requirements, the South African Law Commission has found.

The Commission goes on to say:

	That the Act is currently the principle instrument for assisting children who are in need of substitute parental care, or alternatives.  However, the paper pointed out that the Act could not be isolated from other laws affecting children, nor should it be divorced from the law on the relationship between parents and children, families and the State.  South Africa has never had a strategy to create a legal system to promote the wellbeing of children in a comprehensive, holistic manner.  The Minister called on all South African organs of civil society, community based organisations, Government departments and Education, Health, Welfare and Youth Works to comment and make suggestions on this particular document.

I do hope, Madam Chair, that this document will be made available to the Portfolio Committee as soon as possible.  

The other important aspect that I would like to bring to this House's attention, is in the report here, on page 7, the Lund Committee makes a recommendation, Madam Chair.

	The Lund Committee recommendation, accepted by the National Minister of Welfare, which scheme was to be implemented during August 1997, this might be only one aspect of a holistic approach to poverty and the child support benefit.

The stark reality, Madam Chair, is that any grant must follow the child and must be paid to the care-giver.  A means test is another important area underpinning this whole exercise.  The recommended cut off point of a monthly household income of R800 is not a realistic figure.  The R75 per child per month will not suffice to clothe, feed and care for the child.  Therefore it is important that we revisit these particular areas.  The suggestion to consider this grant on a quarterly basis also will only compound the hardships, monthly payments will indeed contribute to their wellbeing.  If the take on of the children for the next five years is estimated at 600 000 there is obviously concern as to the Department's capacity to account for these figures, because somewhere the Department also indicates a drop in its administration.  A drop in its administration obviously will affect the delivery process.

On page 9 of the report, reference is made to social assistance, Madam Chair.  I am indeed very pleased that there is a policy as far as social assistance is concerned, to non-governmental organisations.  I want to lay very, very strong emphasis here this afternoon, that this assistance to non-governmental organisations must enjoy high priority.  I want to refer to one particular organisation which is called WORKASA, Working Against Substance Abuse and is affiliated to the KwaZulu-Natal Drug Forum and SAAPSA, the South African Alliance Prevention of Substitute Abuse.

This organisation is on the North Coast and, Madam Chair, it has had no financial assistance from the Department.  I urge that such well structured organisations should be given the recognition, like in housing the responsibility is now being placed on the people and the community leaders.  So should the welfare institutions.  Briefly, WORKASA was founded because of the need to have an instrument to combat the problem of substance abuse due to the affect it has on the person, family, community and society, and to include a spirit of awareness and prevention for the victims.  A spirit of support where there is neglect and fear, hope where there is none and to create a desire to overcome this addiction.

In the past, Madam Chair, many of the difficulties associated with such a project have now been successfully negotiated.  It is to the credit of WORKASA's founding members that despite daunting odds, we have not lost direction.  Madam Chair, such organisations have made a valuable contribution to the society, and they are continuing to do so.  Any assistance, any moral encouragement to these organisations would indeed help.

I want to confirm what the hon Miss Nahara said when she spoke about the international day.  I have a date here which is 26 June.  This year's international day against drugs is on 26 June.  It is Youth Uniting to Prevent Drug Abuse.  We must take that into consideration.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are left with two minutes, hon member.

MR S V NAICKER:  Madam Chair, on page 20 of the report it refers to the number of staff, and the 21 vacant positions.  The question now arises, will the financial constraints which we have, and with the comprehensive report which we have in our hands, and also all the issues highlighted by every hon member here, and the importance of addressing and implementing that which we have discussed, and that which is contained here is going to be very much dependent on the number of staff that we have, and the structures of our Department.  I want to appeal to the hon Minister, together with the heads of Department, and the Portfolio Committee to do its utmost to help in this process, that we do everything possible to help this exercise.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR S V NAICKER:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The next speaker on the list is the hon member Mrs T Millin.  You have eight minutes, Madam.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  That came as a surprise.  I thought there were still some other people to come before me.  Congratulations to our hon Minister on the presentation of his budget speech, and to the hard work of the Department.

The Minister has already dealt at length, and in detail with all aspects of his portfolio.  However, I would like to just add my warmest congratulations to the Minister for his tireless work regarding the rooting out of fraud.  I think he really deserves a huge pat on the back for that.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  There I have given him a pat for you.  [LAUGHTER]

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you!  With a budget allocation of R3,98 billion for Welfare, which works out at 94% of the budget for transfer of payments, 4% for social welfare and 2% for personnel and administration, one has the situation quite reversed from that of Health and Education.  Therefore, the usual accusation of too much spent on a bloated bureaucracy does not apply.  However, the shortfall of the budgetary requirements for welfare is of deep concern to this Ministry.

With much fanfare, our National Minister Moleketi this week, and this time attired in neutral blue, unlike her stunning black, green and yellow ensemble when handing out long overdue pensions recently in the Eastern Province...  The Minister announced that all old age pensions would increase to R500 a month from October, along with war veterans, disability, and care dependent pensions, to be paid monthly to nearly 3 million South Africans, of which 600 000 are in KwaZulu-Natal.

This figure of 600 000 is expected to rise significantly during the year, given the rapidly worsening unemployment figures, in addition to the normal growth rate.  For example, a total of 75 000 additional children are expected to come into the system as a result of the introduction of the child support grant.

This is all very good news, no doubt, to the desperately needy recipients, small though that individual increase may be, given the creeping rise in the cost of living.  For example, fuel costs announced this very day in news reports, are to rise sharply, combined with our Rand falling to its lowest level against the Dollar yesterday.

But what the hon Minister Moleketi fails to mention is, that this is yet another unfunded mandate for the provinces, and, unless the Central Government releases the funds to cover this further added expense, there simply will not be the money to honour this grand-sounding largesse, announced in Parliament in Cape Town on Wednesday.

Chair, it is National Government that has set the norms and standards for the provinces.  Therefore, it is National Government, and particularly Finance Minister Manuel, who should be shouldering the responsibility of borrowing to meet the shortfalls, particularly in Education, Health and Welfare.  Instead, Manuel has forced provinces into borrowing at commercial bank rates.  Clearly, doing this enables Manuel to look good in the eyes of the international community, because, by starving the provinces he, Manuel, contrives to keep the national budget deficit around 4,3% of GDP.

I have a question for Minister Manuel, I hope he hears it some time.  Has he done this because provincial debt is not so readily scrutinised by the international rating agencies, such as Standard and Poor?  As we are only too aware, Provincial Governments are, by law, not permitted to be in debt at the end of our financial year.  So clearly, the provinces, and specifically KwaZulu-Natal are being put in an untenable situation.  Basically, not nearly enough funding to carry out the programmes and policies set by National Government.  Yet, we in KwaZulu-Natal are being left holding the baby which has been put on a starvation diet, and with the prospect of underfunding continuing this and next year, with ever more services having to be reduced or done away with, one is forced to conclude, Chair, that there is a calculated and deliberate scheme afoot to render the provinces, and specifically the IFP led KwaZulu-Natal Province, unworkable by stipulating mandates at Central ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me, hon member.  There is a request from the recording company that seeing that you are using two microphones, do not let them face each other.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Sorry, okay.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  .... at Central, yet patently not providing sufficient funding to carry out such mandates, thereby leaving one with the justified suspicion that there is a calculated attempt to undermine, and even sabotage the IFP-led Government's ability to govern this Province.

Have our colleagues on the opposite bench, and I am afraid there are not many of them here, let us face it, but have they learnt nothing from the legacy of sanctions and disinvestment that they so assiduously cultivated for so many years, particularly the whirlwind of destruction to the economy?  The loss of jobs, businesses, homes and loss of pride and dignity to untold millions who could no longer provide for their families, the rise in crime as more and more desperate people struggle to keep alive.  One would have thought, Chair, that if the SACP/ANC were serious about taking control of this Province ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  Yes, listen for goodness sake.  If you were really serious about 1999, that is what you want to do, they would have bent over backwards to ensure that they would be inheriting a vibrant, happy, economically successful powerhouse!

However, looking at what is unfolding in the terminally chaotic Eastern Province, which is almost 100% SACP/ANC controlled, I might add, and by the way, "controlled" I use that word in its loosest term, clearly such logical thinking is foreign to our hon colleagues on the other side.  The law of cause and effect just does not enter into their equation!

So, while Manuel's budgetary clamps, to quote the Mercury of 16 February 1998, are not altogether fair on populous provinces like KwaZulu-Natal, and while Manuel is seen as having "shown welcome resolve to maintain policy consistency which business and investors demand", that still leaves the provinces, and particularly KwaZulu-Natal, holding the loudly protesting baby, which will become a screaming, kicking, hitting baby as the real hunger sets in.

I conclude, Madam Chair, by quoting a portion of a clarion call to Minister Manuel in the Sunday Tribune of 8 February 1998, which charges the hon Minister with dishonesty in his insistence with sticking to 4% to 4,3% of the national budget deficit target at the expense of calamitous shortfalls to the provinces.  Quote:

	Next year the underfunding will be worse.  Services will be slashed.  Provinces need more money, if there is not to be blood in the streets.  Manuel needs to take his share of the heat, otherwise that blood will be on his hands.

Chair, while it is patently absurd to say that I support and welcome this budget for Welfare and Pensions, we are unfortunately left with no choice other than to accept a quite untenable budget vote.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We call upon the next speaker on the list, the hon Mr E Magubane, for 12 minutes.

MR N E MAGUBANE:  Thank you, Chairperson. 

TRANSLATION:  If I talk about pensions, I am talking maybe about something that touches every black person who is in a situation of hardship and harassment.  Harassment that started in the past until now.  You find that in pensions, many people go there with the aim of getting paid their money, but what they find is that it is said they died many months ago, yet the person that is said to be dead is actually alive and is there to collect his money.  We do not know who signs the death certificates when a person is found alive when it is said that he is dead.  The death certificates are signed in one place and we are supposed to look closely at this place and find out with what right this place signs these death certificates, and under what circumstances, and who brings in the numbers of dead people who receive pensions, who are said to be dead, so that the pensions are not available.

We find that these people experience harassment in many ways, and yet they are elderly and should be respected by the nation.  We find them leading difficult lives and using this money to feed their families, grandchildren, educating quite a number of their families.  

Yet, this money cannot fulfil the needs of their families.  People who are employed and healthy, just like me, because I have been given an opportunity of working in this Department.  Then they find ways to make sure that that money does no reach the rightful owners.  They even go out to create syndicates who will work with me so that the money does not reach the elderly and the handicapped and end up forcefully stopping security cars, carrying money, taking this money to be used by people who are thugs, who want to live rich lives for which they have not toiled.

Proceeding from that, I say the Department needs to look carefully at this thing that honestly, what type of people work for the Department and what type of lives they lead, are the lives suited for them to keep these jobs that they have.  From there I am saying many people who are found engaged in forcefully taking money from security cars along the road, shooting and killing innocent people, with the aim of taking the money.  

People within the Department know that the money would not reach its destination, but this money would go where they, who want to use it, want it to go.

Therefore, if that is the case, the Department has to look very closely and deeply at what plan could be made so that the pensioners receive their money in appropriate ways.  The National Government is trying in every way to improve the lives of the elderly and disabled people.  

Just yesterday the National Government, knowing that when we were fighting for freedom, talking and placing on the table all our aspirations, that there should be a law that will be controlled by black people.  That the country should be returned to black people and managed in a way that will please black people.  We said that black people will see to it that their elderly women and elderly men and disabled people will have the right of receiving pensions, that will sustain their families.

Therefore, in these past days, it pleased me to receive numbers that showed that the Government is really trying in every way and at every opportunity, despite the debt weighing over it, that we often talk about in this House.  That black people who are pensioners, get something from it, so that during their days on earth they can see that the Government for which they voted, is really fulfilling some of their needs.

We heard that as they are getting a sum of R470, shortly there will be an additional R20, so that they will get R490.  Again, shortly after that, as if nothing had happened, the Government will stretch out its hand and raise that amount to R500.  

We will see that, although this Government is having it hard trying to sustain this with the money, that it sees to it that it gives warmth to these elderly people who have never in their lives had pleasure, warmth and happiness, so that at the end of their days they will say they voted for people who know that they are a struggling, oppressed nation, whose future was bleak and they came through, dedicated their lives and fought so that we, today, can die knowing that even if we die, our families, although left destitute, but there is something of Government that exists and that we voted for, that will see to it that they get the life that befits them.

Even then, as we say this, it is so, over there, in those departments that manage our funds and distribute them accordingly to the right places, we find many people who have many schemes so that this money does not reach their owners.  If they do not reach their owners, as someone has said, they are thugs, a thug, or whatever it is called, I call him a thug, because if he takes away another person's right, that person is a thug, regardless of what colour he is, he is a thug.

In the past we were ruled by thugs who controlled us in various ways, and at the end of the day killed us.  But those who are on my left-hand side, did not say that thugs were governing the country, but they have just started seeing thugs today, because they look like them and kill people.  I am saying today, let us agree and accept that the current Government, even though there are thugs, it is not the aim of the Government, but the thugs have their own agenda they use to fulfil what they want.

Proceeding from that I am saying, mothers and fathers, and all the elderly people receiving pensions, there is a situation they find themselves in, and that situation is that there are people who say they represent an insurance such as the insurance I will talk about, called Cornerstone.  

Cornerstone forces elderly people to pay them a part of their pension and pay it for a scheme called, "'Till Death do us Part".  Well, I do not understand how you will be separated only by death with a person you do not even know, a person who has never had a romantic relationship with you.  [LAUGHTER]

What happens with Cornerstone is that they deduct money from pensioners, of elderly men and women and the disabled, with the aim that at the end of the day these people will be buried.  But when the time of death comes, they disappear, never to be seen, and the families find themselves with the problem of having to bury these people, this person.  Yet, there had not been an agreement, even from the on-set, that Cornerstone would bury these people.

When I look at the pension situation, it says that no-one can deduct a certain amount of money from a pensioner's money, without having received that money and made an agreement that he will pay only when he has received the money and it is already in his hands.  Even if it is R5.00, that R5.00 will be paid by the pensioner to that person with whom he has made an agreement.  It should not be deducted before the money gets to the pensioner and then it is said R5.00 is not there, because Cornerstone, who is an heir, not chosen by anybody, has taken it.

Then I continue to say, there are many things taking place regarding pensions.  You find that there are people who work in Pensions and receive bribes, whose names are known, and the police even know them.  Sometimes you find that they, the police themselves, have a share, because these animal-like people always want to be fed portions.  They do not even know whether they are laced with poison.  They then receive money.  There is something that happens over there in Pensions, there are people who arrive the night before and even place stones in positions, so that if it is in position two, then that person will also be in that position.

Then come these animal-like greedy people who stuff their own stomachs, the people mentioned.  These greedy people come and say they do not care about the issue of placing stones to secure one's position, even if you arrive at 10.00 now, as you are about to get paid.  We need you to move upfront because you will pay us R20 for putting you in front.  Those who arrived yesterday and slept there, that is their business, they chose to do so.  And you, because you know what you want, bring your money to us and we will put you in front and you can get your money and leave.  It happens as I say.

Therefore, Chairperson, I am saying these things will continue at pay-points if they are not looked at and corrected and certain people are arrested.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we observe the point of order.

MR W A ZUMA:  Chair, on a point of information.

MR N E MAGUBANE: Sir, please except me and continue].

MR W A ZUMA:  I am still listening to the Chair.  I wanted to inform the hon member that he is giving distorted information here.  Cornerstone does exist.  Many people have been buried by Cornerstone.  I find it ridiculous of the member to tell the people such misinformed information.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You can continue, hon member.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR N E MAGUBANE: TRANSLATION:  Please protect me, and then I will continue with my speech.  If Cornerstone buried people at Mafunza and did not bury them at Mazizini, there is a difference there.  People at Mazizini will say Cornerstone does not bury people in our area.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, the first speaker must switch his microphone off.  What point are you raising, sir?

AN HON MEMBER: I would like to ask if the hon member will take a question].

MR N E MAGUBANE: no].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You can continue, hon member.

MR N E MAGUBANE: 

TRANSLATION:  So, we ask that these things be looked at closely, so that we are able to protect elderly people from these things that are taking place.  Because at the end of the day, elderly people end up not saying that this is an independent company.  They say it is a company brought in by the Government and the Government is taking money away from us, using these people.

So another thing we find here is that pensioners have a lot of difficulty because of two reasons, and those are:  In certain districts you find that there are no pension offices with full time staff who can be in the offices and work for their communities.  They come in from other areas to work in this area.  You find that they say they will only attend to 60 people.  After those 60 people, they will leave.  Yet, there are about 300 or more people here to sign up for pensions.

This is harassment of the people.  First of all, this person came here, using money, borrowed from the neighbours, with the hope that he will sign up and return with all his things in order.  Then it is said, because he is Number 61 he will not be registered.  This means that the following week, or the following month, he must borrow yet more money so that he can come here.  He has a debt elsewhere where he gets food to give to his children as the shop knew that he was receiving a pension, but now it has stopped.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, you have got one more minute left.  I have been able to check on your time.  So one more minute.

MR N E MAGUBANE: 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member your time is up.

MR N E MAGUBANE:  Ngiyabonga.

TRANSLATION:  Thank you.  Lastly, Chairperson, there are confusing and painful things happening here.  There is a prosecutor in our area who was trying to assist pensioners a lot so that their things are straightened out.  It happened that he was doing obvious things that exposed certain people who are in high positions and are respectable.  

An urgent meeting was called by a certain ~Inkosi~ who is in charge of them there as a chairperson of the region.  He called them at 2.00 o'ccock, and said that 5.00 should not strike with this person still here, because if 5.00 strikes while he is still here, he has no-one to protect him at sunset, because he is exposing things that are not supposed to be revealed.  

We can see that this person has been planted here, but this person is helping people with things that have been troubling them for years, which are supposed to be corrected and an ~Inkosi~ comes and says, 5.00 should not strike while this person is here because I do not have people to protect him because he is here to expose things which should not be revealed.  Thank you.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks.  The next name on the list is the hon Mr F Dlamini, for 20 minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, I wonder if your House of Committees is still correct, but be that as it may, the process must continue.

Madam Chair, social welfare is a discipline that is common to all developing countries, because it deals with problems of poverty and social dysfunctioning, and tends to assume a charity orientation where you cannot tell people to pick themselves up by the straps of their boots, because they do not have boots, in the first place, not to mention the straps.

In our country as well, we talk about social welfare service delivery as a means of meeting the basic needs of the people, the restoration of their human dignity and providing them with capacity for self-determination.  This is a remarkable paradigm shift towards Social Development.  We are pleased to note that at long last the Department has a semblance of introducing  Social Development plans.

In the first world countries, or socialist countries like the Scandinavian countries, social services is the provision of benefits for the wellbeing of citizens.  These are countries that have in the course of history worked hard and done the right things for the development of a vibrant socio-economic system, which we are aspiring to as a country.

In view of the aforegoing comments, it is therefore imperative that as we discuss the Social Welfare and Population Development budget, we should reduce political point scoring to the minimum.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR F DLAMINI:  Our concerted effort must be commitment towards social service delivery that will satisfy felt and apparent needs.  In doing this, there are some paramount issues to bear in mind, namely:

Understanding the policy and the appropriate interpretation thereof.  When one sees the extent of fraud and corruption being committed by the officials of the Department, such as accepting bribes, fraudulent generation of cheques, depriving pensioners of their payments and many others, you begin to wonder whether these officials understand that:

1.	The objective of social grants first and foremost is to alleviate poverty;  and

2.	That the availability of money to pay social grants is a limited resource that must be applied with extreme discretion.

Having said that, one also feels that some officials have not yet come out of the culture of poverty, and here I do not mean poverty in terms of material wealth, but in terms of values such as natural justice, a full sense of responsibility, ~Ubuntu~ and the virtues of honesty and compassion.  These are particularly lacking in most of the officials.  If you think this is too strong an indictment, Madam Chair, then tell me why it has been so difficult to eradicate fraud and corruption in the Department?

The efficient and effectiveness of the re-registration process is dependent entirely on the values and virtues that I have mentioned, coupled with the will of the senior officials to make the process work.

Another very important aspect is understanding the sensitive application of the regulations.  To quote one example.  An old lady who has the wrong birth date on her ID, but is obviously old enough to be a pensioner, is told by a junior official of the Department, when she applies for an old age pension, that she is still too young, she must go and get married. [you are young, go and get married].  These are some of the things that really destroys the image of the Department, and makes it an uncaring Department.

The point raised by the hon Mr Burrows of delays in processing pension applications adds to this uncaring and insensitivity to the plight of the poor people.

My colleague next to me here, the hon Mr Ngidi, has said a mouthful about policies for the general welfare of the people of South Africa, or for the total transformation of this country in terms of progressive policies.  He touched on the integrated national policy on the disabled.  Disabled people, I believe, do not enjoy being dependent.  Bayo Regina Khumalo, a member of Inchanga Disabled Society projects this very clearly.  I quote her:

	Before last year, we were just staying at home.  DPSA came and told us we must train and not stay at home.  It has changed my life.  Now we know we are the same as anyone.  I can sell things and get money rather than begging.

We need an innovative way of subsidising welfare projects for the disabled, that would create an income for them, and thus relieve the Department of the high number of grants paid to people with disabilities.  A correspondent of CAFOD, Mary McCollom, says, I quote:

	Under ~Apartheid~, black disabled people suffered deprivation along with their able bodied brothers, and aspects of life, under and after ~Apartheid~ increased their handicaps.

It is those aspects, Chairperson, that I suggest should be met head on.  Mary further informs us that there are an estimated 6 million people with disabilities in South Africa, and the black population is higher in this equation because of poverty and violence.

Madam Chair, I would like to remind this House, that on 15 May 1998 I tabled a motion where I noted that our Social Welfare and Population Development Department spends R2 million per annum to run a project that generates about R6 000 per annum.  I also indicated in that motion that the dependence of the people with disabilities in the institutions has deepened to the extent that productivity has dropped to 10%.  I further appealed to this House to resolve that a strategic plan be developed to privatise the institutions, or let it be considered as a job creation project in terms of the poverty alleviation programme.

We hope that people with disabilities will benefit from the R4,4 million that has been allocated to the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development of this Province, for the specific aim of job creation.  We know that the allocation is to cater for all the vulnerable groups of our society, but we are just emphasising that the disabled should be remembered in this occasion.

An amount of R286 000 is reflected in the budget estimates, as a grant-in-aid to people taking care of the disabled.  A clarification of this item may help us understand the appropriateness of this budget item, where it is going to be used as an aid for the disabled people.

Earlier on I referred to the non-productive institutions for people with disabilities.  Those that are run by private welfare organisations appear to be performing fairly well, and are providing opportunities desired by the disabled.  We are talking about 16 such private welfare organisations.  Eight in the Durban region, four in the Pietermaritzburg region, and four in the ~Ulundi~ region.

Chairperson, with the time that I have, I would like to refer to some of the issues that have been raised during the course of this debate.  It is a pity that some members who have commented are no longer here.  What I picked up was an anti-attitude towards COSATU.  Referring to COSATU as a labour movement, interested in family stability is quite appropriate, because this is what we are striving towards.  The stabilisation of family life.

There was also a comment regarding improving the rural pay-points.  We are very appreciative of this, Madam Chair, except that for the past two years this issue has been raised, and for the past two years these pay-points have been established across the Tugela River.  This stands out like a sore thumb.

We must also comment on the management during pay outs, which is still very poor.  This was an issue that was also raised by the hon ~Inkosi~ Khawula when he spoke about the people from the agents who do not manage the pay outs properly.  We often receive reports that agents arrive at the pay-point at 9 o'clock, but only start paying out at 11 or 12.  As a result they pay until very late in the day.  At the bigger pay-points people have to come back the following day.  This is an inconvenience that cannot be tolerated.

Madam Chair, it is extremely disappointing that the re-registration that was agreed to by MINMEC during August 1997, and in this Province was announced to start on 1 June, will now only start in August.

I say it is disappointing, because this matter has financial implications.  If we are told that between 150 and R300 million is going to be saved, then it means during the interim period the same amount will go down the drain.

Madam Chair, through the VSPs, the Department lost some very good social workers.  I guess it is not only the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development that did not handle the VSPs appropriately.  This is a lesson for us that should this ever be necessary again, it must be treated with great caution.  In other words, we have got to make sure that people who have become redundant must be given packages and they must leave, instead of losing good people that can help to build up the Department.

Child protection.  My hon colleague here, Miss Nahara, told us that this week is Child Protection Week.  The point that I want to raise in this regard is the question of child labour.  There are many areas in this Province where child labour is at unbearably high levels.  We appear to be doing very little about child labour in this Province.

I must also state that in the market plazas of different towns and cities, children are exploited and paid a pittance.  What is even worse, is that they are denied schooling opportunities.  One can actually mention areas.  Umzinto is one of them.  I know there is a place called Kismet where they employ 22 children who are always brought in through the back door in the morning, and taken out through the back door in the afternoon so that the public does not see them.

KwaDukuza is another area where in the market plaza, the traders are exploiting our young children.  We are doing absolutely nothing about it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR F DLAMINI:  Madam Chair, I would now like to thank the Minister for his presentation of the budget.  We also would like to extend our thanks to the officials present who hold the fort and ensure that things get better.  I only hope that they are going to make a concerted effort to get things even better.

The other thing is that we tend to concentrate on social security as the issue in the Department.  Perhaps this is due to the fact that 92% of the budget goes towards social security.  There are other areas, and other programmes in the social services that need to be taken care of by the Department.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are now going to ask the hon Minister, the Prince, to respond.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  Madam Chair, colleagues.  Firstly, I wish to thank my colleagues for the constructive manner in which they debated my budget speech.  Their constructive approach has been taken care of, and I have arranged with my top support staff to send some of you answers, individually.  I wish also to thank my staff members for the manner in which they run the Department.  We are understaffed, but we hold the fort.  I wish also to thank the people that are hired to assist us in carrying out the business of the Department.  I want to thank CPS, the police, the Attorney-General's office, the Department of Justice, the Department of Health who supply the doctors to assess the applicants for disability grants.

The SAPS Task Team investigating the fraud have assured me that the 57 Swazi's who have been arrested, is just a drop in the ocean.  I agree with them, because I have a lot of information on foreigners who are helping themselves to our pensions.  I thank you all for the manner in which you have debated this budget speech of the Department of Social Welfare.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We have completed the debate on vote 13 of Social Welfare.  We will now wait for the hon Deputy Speaker to come in.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 14:41
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 14:43

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  On the resumption of the House, I will request the Chairperson of Committees to make a report.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr Speaker, we have concluded the debate on vote 13 on Social Welfare.  However, we still have not completed our business.  We seek permission to continue with our business on the next sitting day of this House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Chairperson of Committees.  That then concludes today's business.  Before we adjourn, I will enquire if there are any announcements from the Premier?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  Mr Speaker, there are no announcements from the Premier.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister, for that indication.  In that event, now that we have concluded today's business, and we have come to the end of the week, I adjourn this sitting until Monday, 1 June at 10:30 in the morning here in the parliamentary chamber in Pietermaritzburg.  I wish all of you a happy weekend.  The House stands adjourned until 1 June.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 14:45 UNTIL

	10:30 ON MONDAY, 1 JUNE 1998


